Why?

Because it gives a very good return on the investment and replaces FYM which is not available in the right quantities for most crops.

The graph of the yields at Rothamsted's Broadbalk field show this well:

Haven't the cash to buy next years yet but sold some wheat forward at €208/t. Hope that covers all my variable inputs for next year.

Bon courage,

JC. 

Beans, whats the Gross margin on them?, I take it they are a low input crop. What sort of yield do you get?. What usually causes the wheels to fall off?. Would you harvest them before or after say spring barley?. I have bad memory's of unblocking a combine. Good memory,s of cultivating after them.

Our trend yield (excluding last year - which was exceptionally poor due to flooding) is just over 5t to the hectare, or two to the acre. No nitrogen and just a tiny amount of P&K on our strong land. They are not a light land crop, and are generally the last to harvest - end August or early Sept for us in the middle of the UK.

Input costs (herbicide) has tripled this year with the banning of two good actives - simazine and cyanazine.

Pros are high residual N for following wheat (or rape), great for min-till or direct drilling wheat after, low seed cost as you can reuse your own seed for quite a while providing you have no ascochyta. NB these are spring beans which we use as they allow a good semi-fallow for grassweed control. Winter beans can be ploughed in, or even drilled with a subsoiler. Spring beans want drilling properly - attention to detail pays.

Cons are that some dont like to combine them (! - its a piece of piss), dislike compaction, will not yield on lighter land, vastly reduced herbicide options. Quality sample relies on killing bruchids which are highly unpredicatble and difficult to target.

Many poor yields are due to lack of care - they are seen as a low input crop so just get chucked on with a spreader and harrowed in. In reality they want going in 4 inches deep. You can drill from Feb to April and still perform. We also non-plough for them.

f j, a very interesting graph.

Its a few yrs since i saw that info.

Why does the graph indicate that fallowing and liming were introduced in 1920 and 1960, when they were introduced about 200 yrs before.?

Why does graph end in 2000?

Interesting to see that fym gives highest yield.

Can anyone tell me, how much oil or gas is needed to make one ton of nitram fert?

Can anyone tell me how many Kg of P&K there is in a ton of barley straw?It would help me work out what price I require for straw ?

Seems the thread after your post went to sewage sludge. Basics of what you say are in my view about right.

Not convinced that biology is the only way to release the stocks you mention.

Regards

Hi Tiza.Not sure anyone understands the thread.Know one has yet questioned it ether.Still keep hoping!!   JOHN.

How's your system work John. I'm all for spending less on fert. Higher N prices i can live with but not P K S. There's no sewage sludge available here.

The graph of annual yields from Broadbalk at Rothamsted does clearly demonstrate the value of FYM and artificial ferts, other aspects of this long-term experiment also show the benefits of a sound cropping rotation and the massive value of break crops. The labels of liming, fallowing and herbicides etc just indicate the years in which these variables were introduced as part of the experiment.  This graph is reproduced from Rothamsted's guide to the Long-term experiments , this experiment is still on going and is a unique resource of data , soil and crop samples from 1844 to the present day.

It shows the value of a good break crop. There are rape crops about (one even a large merchants trials) full of volunteer wheat. The merchants involved were paying to have them rogued to tidy them up, as they had already used their max number of graminicides. Personally, I am dubious about the value of rape as the sole break crop. You want to see some serious wheat yield? Grow it more like one in 4.

It adds to my lament to the loss of heavy-land beet, that for a lot of people, the only way to make land pay at these prices will be a wheat/rape rotation. If you already own your land and dont want to slaughter it, you could extend your non-wheat years. The value of spring sown 'true' breaks, and indeed of double breaks will be more seen when blackgrass is even harder to beat.

What about peas for canning and human consumption, they leave the soil in good condition for the following years crop, the land on our farm is always the easiest plough following peas, granted the margins aint as big as rape and ya need good pidgeon control to get a good crop. They are also fairly cheap to put into the ground, we plough in spring and let the weather do the work before a quick level with a tripleK cultivator then drill and roll. You can also use farm saved seed too to keep costs down. 

People cant keep growing wheat rape rotations its fine for the first few years as diseases for rape havent built up in the soil but give it a few years and the yield will begin to plumet you should only grow it 1 in 4, 1 in 5 is prefered but the bank manager probally wont like u 

It always shocks me that the UK rape yield is so low. Then when you see what farmers actually do to their crops, its easy to see why. They are not a low input crop. You can get it to yield with low N, but not with low ag-chem. Most of ours is one in 5, but I reckon one in 6 would be better. 

At UK average of 3.3t/ha, a good crop of spring beans will pay you more. Its not that the margins arent as big as rape, its the whole farm health approach. People on a wheat/rape rotation who also bale all the residue and do not reapply as muck should have their farms taken from them by the state and  redistributed to new entrants  who promise diverse rotations.

I think peas come down to three areas 1) risk - they simply arent as simple to manage as beans, 2) reward - if they are flat and mildewy, they wont pay as good as beans. 3) disease - you ought not grow them in the same rotation as beans. So rotation wise, you probably only ought have one pulse in every 4 years (min) and ideally 6. For most that is beans or peas. Anecdotally, for every 4 crops of peas, you will get one stunner, one disaster and two ok. 

I hear they are great to min-till wheat after? Have you considered not ploughing them? 

http://www.fwi.co.uk/Community/forums/is-it-possible-to-min-2d00-til-peas-3f00-12692.aspx

I think a major problem in long rotations is having one without grass in there, especially on land that you cant grow roots on or that you are either direct drilling or not ploughing. Economically, you want to avoid fallowing, but also you want to maximise different spray modes of action. Unless you are having to pay for land bought very recently, most of the break crops will show a good margin, so now is the time to get a nice rotation going, until the EU ban all sprays for minority crops. Stupids.

Well said both posts.

I would add that ploughing after peas is just about best way to loose the nodulised N as it breaks down very quickly, unlike winter bean N.

As you may have posted on another forum on Rape I agree on hybrids. And your approach. Basicaly the change from single to double low many did not notice the significant change in TGW. And the best step forward we have had since that time is hybrids.

Regards

On our light sandy loams we have had good results from a rotation of W.Wheat, W. OSR, W. Wheat, S.Beans which keeps the rape every 4 years, but  we do have the advantage of light free- draining soils to allow us to follow the S. Beans with a winter wheat if the beans are late to combine in a wet autumn.

The poor prices for Beans and cereals three years ago led us to stop growing this rotation and fall back to a 3 year grass/clover ley to maintain fertility and growing just enough cereals to produce grain and straw for our livestock. But, looks like we may go full circle again , or move to a Ley farming system to maximise the contribution of clover/legumes to the arable rotation. unfortunately RB209 is not very specific on cereal N recommendations following clover rich leys.

Anyone with experience of following red clover leys (3/4 year) with w.wheat? How much N would you apply on a "mineral soil" with the expectation of a

10-11 t/ha w.wheat crop?