As promised yesterday here is my pick of the bulls for this weekend's sale of Limousins at Carlisle. I've tried to keep it a real top end selection this time, so there are bound to some in the book that I don't mention which you feel are worthy of noting.
As usual feel free to comment below, adding your personal picks and in the meantime I'll dive for cover!
First to appear in my list is Moonleaze Doubledecker (lot 158) from the Comers of Swindon. This bull combines a number of top blood lines, being a son of Bernish Alfy, a Sympa son out of a Gigolo daughter, and out of Ronick Vienna, a Cannon daughter with Bailea Olympia in her back line. He has a beef value of +43.
Next up is one I'm really looking forward to seeing, Nebo Director (lot 160) from the Thomas family. This is by Dauphin and out of Nebo Roberta, dam of Nebo Viking, stock bull at Smiths of Bloxham. Roberta is by Gaulois and was also dam of 12,000gns Nebo Dynamite sold at Carlisle last May. My only concern here would be his mobility, I've not been a massive fan of Viking's movement, so we'll have to see what Director does himself.His beef value is +45.
I'm also intrigued by Rainbow Dunkirk (lot 171). This Springwood Vino son - a Gigolo son - is out of a full sister to Rainbow Simon, stock bull for the Quicks in Devon. Simon has been breeding consistently good sons which have sold readily at Carlisle in recent sales and I'll be looking to see what this line, combined with Gigolo breeding can offer.
And then I skip through the catalogue a bit, to Gronw Darnel (lot 234). This one is by Scordale Terry, but his interesting breeding is in his dam's side, with Gigolo and Djerk in his back pedigree, this should give him plenty of muscle. He has a beef value of +44.
A brace from John Weatherill's Millington herd are next to draw my eye. This first of these is Millington Diploma (lot 258) and is the pick of their entry for me. This is by Mas Du Clo and out of Gaich Pinup. This Djerk daughter is out of Gaich Nutcracker is a real muscle machine with a Royal Welsh breed championship to her name. His beef value is a little on the low side at +24.
The other from this herd is the first of a pair of ET brothers to 28,000gns heifer Millington Davina, Millington Dallas (lot 259). Now, its probably well remembered that I've not been Davina's biggest fan, she's just too masculine and slightly unbalanced for me, but you can't deny the way the dam, Brockhurst Option has been breeding, with another daughter Millington Choice selling for 10,000gns. Dallas has a beef value of +27, the next lot - Millington Dejavu is the other ET brother.
Following that I've marked Ampertaine Dynamo (lot 299), this Sympa son (a sire needing no introduction), is out of Kype Signet, a Cloughhead Lord daughter. This combination of Sympa and Lord is one that's clicked well for several herds and this could be no different with Dynamo's full brother Brigadier sold privately to AI services in 2007. He carries a beef value of +36.
And after him, I've come to Glangwden Daniel (lot 307). This Haltcliffe Ullswater son (another Sympa son leaving top selling progeny) is out of Panama, a Jacot daughter, with a female line with a grandmother, Delicieuse, shared with Requin, Brian Jones' good breeding bull. He has a beef value of +37.
Spookily, having just mentioned Brian Jones, it is a Bailea bull that gets the next tick, Bailea Black Dazzle. This a black son of Salomon, again a sire needing no introduction, out of Belldoon Delite, a Planet Hollywood SLVL daughter . He sells with a beef value of +28.
Then it's the turn of a Northern Irish bull, Baltracey Delboy (lot 357). This is another Mas Du Clo son and is out of Knocknagree Tesse, a Dauphin daughter with a female line back to Geant. This could be an interesting combination of French sires.
After that it's another French combination, Grahams Dallas (lot 373) drawing my eye. This son of Robert Graham's leading show bull Samy is out of French cow Noix, dam of 22,000gns bull Grahams Ultra. This is one of those that I'm just intrigued to see because of his full French breeding, he might not come to much, but we'll find out on Friday.
And now we're edging closer to what look's like being the "class of death" class 21, but before that in class 20 is Millgate Dollar (lot 388) from Michael Loughran. This Haltcliffe Underwriter son is out of Millgate Biddy, a Hawk daughter out of a dam by Mas Du Clo. With those lines combined, he carries a double dose of Cannon, one from each side and has a beef value of +39. He also picked up the championshipe ticket at last year's Northern Irish calf show.
Then we're in to what look's like one of the strongest classes of Lims I've seen in a while, it surely is one to test judge Harry Emslie on Friday, but I suspect it might well test the ringside judges too.
First pick (entirely in catalogue order) is Ironstone Diego from the Smiths of Bloxham team. This Vantastic son is out of 22,000gns purchase Bailea Umelia. His breeding combines Wilodge Tonka and Christine Williams' famous French cow Ravenelle, and Requin and Imposant. ET bred he has a beef value of +38. There has previously been talk of Smiths turning down 25,000gns for one of their team at home, but I have to say I'm not convinced by this story as it doesn't seem to hold any water with anyone I've spoken to. That said it's about time SOB started taking big money for bulls, so perhaps this could be their year???
Next in this class is another bull with a lot of talk behind it, Gorrycarm Diarra (lot 396) from David Kenwell. This one is a Sympa son out of Honeylodge Ava, a Cloughhead Lord daughter. As mentioned earlier this is a combination working well in many herds and Diarra's pedigree certainly packs a punch, with Mas Du Clo and Dauphin tucked away in his back line. His beef value is +36.
Then there is another from the Loughrans to take the eye, Millgate Doc (lot 400). This is another Underwriter son out off Ballyline Udima, a Mas Du Clo daughter out of a Dauphin daughter. So, this one draws in Sympa, Cannon, Mas Du Clo and Dauphin in his sire stack. With a beef value of +46, he stood second to herd mate Dollar at the Northern Irish calf show.
Finally in this class is another one rumoured to be an outstanding proposition, Grahams Dublin (lot 404). He's by Millington Vascular (another of Brockhurst Option's progeny) and out of Burnbank Adele, a Grahams Tycoon daughter out of Ryedale Idyll. Those who have seen the Grahams team for Carlisle tell me this is the one to watch and he has a beef value of +36.
And my last pick for this catalogue is Goldies Dynamo from Bruce Goldie. This is by Ampertaine Bravo, another Sympa son out of a Lord daughter, and is out of Goldies Babe, a Nenuphar daughter with Cannon in her dam's side. He also goes back to Ronick Isabelle, dam of 20,000gns Goldies Apollo and 12,000gns Goldies Unionflag. He has a beef value of +39.
So, having read all of that I'm sure there'll be something that's taken your fancy that I've not seen, but if its a Wilodge bull I'm afraid you'll be disappointed as I understand these won't be heading to Carlisle this time around, with two having been sold previously and the youngest of the bunch now destined for Carlisle in May. See you in Carlisle on Friday......
Great preview JL - hopefully you won't get a ticking off for not going over board on figures - lot numbers are a help too cheers! Class 21 is going to be tough one I agree - but rather that when it's quality - wouldn't like to be judging some of those senior classes - errr!
I agree with your line up Jonathan. Definitely going to be a showdown in 21. It is amazing the amount of bulls in that class with figures in the top 1% of the breed. I have also heard that the Grahams bull is something to look out for - but both mentioned legs as a potential problem.
It is certainly going to be a exciting day´s judging. Harry´s mate Kenwell may find the pre-talk difficult to live upto given the quality of the bulls stood close by.
i tink yee let d man n d middle do his job certainly an honour 2 b ask 2 do d job harry will hav mates all round him he will do his job as best he can.certainly i tink deres more jealousy dan anyting bout dis nireland bull so tink al yee guys shud let d bull do the talkin
Definitely not jealousy Doogle. I personally hope the bull is as good as the talk suggests; we all want to see a great show at Carlisle (although I won´t be able to make it unfortunately). I just know the competition will be stiff (check our R Grahams website for a pic of G. Dublin).
I agree completely that the judge´s job is made easier by the fact that there are quality bulls there - that speaks for itself. I simply meant that the occasion was made all the better for the fact that there are so many good bulls from renowned herds.
Harry will no doubt do a very good job - and I wish him well doing it.
Jonathan - not so sure about the Millinton bull - the pic on the Millinton site isn't that convincing for me.
Wil u be doing a stirling charolais preview?. Some very wel bred bulls on offer
I take it you mean the pic of Millington Dallas ALL4LIMS? To be honest its not him I want to see so much as Millington Diploma, the Pinup son by Mas Du Clo - no pic of him unless you've found one I can't see?
Stirling Charolais preview to come in due course, quite probably this afternoon....
OK - sorry I though you meant Dallas. Agree the other should be more interesting - but as you say no pic of him.
NO doubt the bulls will be decent - I heard Millington Director (I think that was his name) was a fair bull in Sterling/Perth/Sterth/Perling or whatever UA wants to call it now.
Think that millington may have got his notes wrong - the option sons are 1/2 brothers to davina - as she was by masduclo - are they not by ideal 23?
I'm very much looking forward to watching TS over weekend as I can't get to carlisle.
What do you think judge will go for Jonathan?
You're quite right Lim Bull, these are indeed by different sires to Davina. As for what Harry will go for, it will certainly be a correct beast in locomotion and tail setting and more than likely a fairly powerful type with plenty of carcass to it. I'd say pretty much the sort of bull a lot of us would go for provided there was something in front of us we liked. If you want any more clues I'd take a look at Harry's website and see what he's bought himself before - www.emslieslivestock.com
Scot - There are some good bulls on offer, what's your pick? Maerdy got one or two jumping out at me in the book and the Newhouse bulls are meant to be looking well as well! I'm also looking forward to seeing the Blelack bulls by Victorious and the Swalesmoor bulls. Have to say I'm intrigued at watching GC judging - I've heard mixed reviews!!
Wouldn't worry about Nebo Director's movement, he is a bull with excellent mobility.
Well if he has the mobility with those figures and pedigree he should be the bull then! Looks great on paper I can't wait to see him!
AD, you're right if as Taid says he has the mobility then this is one which should create some interest come the weekend. Getting itchy feet to be in Carlisle now!
people are going over board on figures, not only lims but every breed! its gettin harder finding a stock bull every year because quality are goin down. most of the time the best figures bulls are the plainer ones!
Who else, are you on a wind up here or what?!!!!!! If you reckon the quality of bulls on offer is going down you must be looking in the wrong place, Lims have had some outstanding bulls in carlisle in the last few years. try specsavers ASAP
I'll second that Back To Black, who else really is livin in a different world - plainer bulls - I can think of well covered, powerful, fit bulls that look part that have good figures in most breeds - charlies, Lims, Angus. Try looking at the Signet figures (and Lim figures) that say the highest figures are the ones that sell better - stockmen (ped and comm) aren't blind they all go after strong bulls with figures to boost becasue they know they have a saleable commodity - you're off your rocker. where you been looking for bulls exactly? Your criteria must be different to mine and many others!
Thanks JL for stopping the negative thoughts of the cynical on why no Wilodge bulls forward this week . Just wanted to clarify its actually the boy we class as our main man in the catologue from our entries whos staying at home till May (lot 362) and not the youngest of the team . I m not going to join in on the mud throwing competition but take a moment to stop and think and look at the bigger picture sometimes. Its hard enough to breed a good un let alone a real un. Here been very very lucky . Lets all take an America viewpoint of positivety and drop the British negative line .Hoping its a good sale of all there with a consistent strong trade for the vendors and the breed !
No problem CW and thanks for clarifying that, if he's any bit as good as his pedigree suggests then he'll be worth a three month wait to be seen in May! Gains x Ravenelle should make for some bull. Sure it'll be a storming trade for the best of them and as I've already said there are some crackers in the catalogue for everyone to have a bid on.
im a pig farmer really, that was my opinion, just a thought! though havn been in a bull sale since three years
What do you reckon to the cowin bull in the catalogue , DoubleoSeven i think hes called, looks like he could be a well put together bull, with some decent figures behind and a decent pedigree!
Hi Limmyman, long time no comment from you. He looks like he might be an OK sort, concern would be his legs with Rocky in his pedigree. Some on that line really don't have good legs at all.
Who Else - right so you've not been to a sale for 3 years yet you say it's harder to find bulls - ok then!!!! Suggest you take a trip to Carlisle Fri/Sat you'll find a wagon load!
Tbh i dont no why i havent been on here for a while, but your doin a good job! i can see your points about it, but we`ll find out on saturday! see theres been a lot of fuss about this gorrycam bull on here and figures, and think you would have to say 90% of the better bulls have good figures behind them, but for example teddy, the bull that smiths of bloxham has got has a beef value of about 7 so theres an example of one! but there isnt that many out there now! and this bull being honest its a bit of an unknown quantity until saturday, just people with naff rumours, look at dunnamona davina at red ladies, she was all the hype from the catalogues and pictures but on the day she was just average in my eyes and 9 grand is alot to pay for average!but there is people who`ll pay it! this bull could be hero or zero for all we now, so i say Wait TILL SATURDAY!!!!
Well it is good to see you back Limmyman, you're right, Saturday will come soon enough and no matter what happens on Friday in the judging if someone takes a shine to a beast they'll pay whatever they have to
he judged at xmas cracker a few years back will be interesting see what he goes for this time, he hasnt had bulls at perth in a while ??,theres a full brother to ashleigh victor(ashleighdallas) worth a look also balnuith have a bull with outstanding growth 900+kg at 400days, maerdy bull must be something to take straws from it. lot of well bred bulls interesting to see how they look on monday
Aye I've heard mixed reviews, well that's a bit of a fib - not much positive really. Looking forward to seeing them in Stirling - I think the Charo catalogue is far more exciting than the Sim one! You're right about Maerdy bull if straws were taken.....watch this space then!
i reckon the Quicks will have a good run of bulls plus D Hume bull (lot 286) must be some bull looking at the weights
CW
As one of the top Limousin breeders, It would be great to get your opinion on ebv etc
Would you now consider using a bull with a low ebv?
what do you look for first when selecting a bull?
Do you think AI is as successful as using the real bull?
Do you trust weights that are to high?
Any other comments would be grate thanks.
If he did the same as he did at Perth show last yr, well! Was not just quite vintage, v difficult to follow with a lot of good beasts down the line & well sorry a plonker of a champion. How he won so much I just not sure.
Limster you really sound like u have not got a clue. Trust your own judgement! Regardless of what we may think about ebv's they are here to stay, it is a tool that many use to select bulls - and u can't argue with the customer.
Limster,
Full marks to you, you've kept me amused!
Bull power is right in saying you are always looking at the negitives never the positives.
Why are you so sceptical about EBVs?? The system is there to stay = you might aswell accept that and use it to your advantage, trying to stir things up on here really does not acheive anything.
when your picking a bull - use your brain, mate. thats what most of us do. Have you been stung by ebv's? It seems that you have before you question the validity of ebvs.You only need look at cloughead - he never has any figures on his bulls - but he breeds what someone wants maybe you should try that.
Looking forward to seeing you at carlisle - we can amybe sort you out with a bull!!
Brown cow
dont confuse negitive with trying to ensure that the ebv system is varifiable. If you believe in the system you should want to be able to 100% believe in it. Your statement of "you may as well accept it and use it to your advantage" is the problem, I dont want an advantage I just want a robust system.
Cloughead's averages have been well down on the market leaders for some time now.
Can you recommend a bull for me? Do you know of any genuine named bull that are for sale privately? Also do you think that AI is as effective a the bull being there itself?
UB
I am the customer.
I am not arguing against an ebv system, I am arguing for a varifiable ebv system
Do you have an opinion on what I asked BC?
Limster, perhaps the fact that cloughheads averages have been down on the leaders and his lack of figures should spark a thought in everyone's brains - might the two facts be connected?! As for AI, of course it is as effective as the bull being there, look at the number of good vantastic progeny coming from everywhere but Smiths and the influence bulls like Hawk, Dauphin and others still have in the breed. As JL pointed out very well the other day, the current system is verifiable and active investigations do go on - trust me its not a pleasant experience!
I'll second that B2B - I think part of your comment was missed off though - what you were going to say is the fact Vantastic is breeding so well for others yet Smiths who have the bull aren't quite as good! Limster just go and look for a bull at a sale - if you know your breeding, study the health status, accept the figures for what they are and do a bit of reaserach on the sellers you'll soon know where to get a good one - enough breeders manage it quite fine so you should be able to. If you're looking for a Lim I can think of countless prefixes where they would be just fine to deal with privately, have good figures (not fixed, variable or any other description you might give them) and be decent enough people to deal with Procters, newhouse, Emslies, Wilodge, ronick, Cowin, Homebyres, Loosebeare (I know I've missed others but that's just off the top of my head!).
Limster,
You have to figure these things out yourself, ask the question what's breeding etc etc then go do your home work. Please please drop the ebv issue as it's getting a bit tiresome.
You tar everyone with same brush of being dishonest, a "genuine named bull" , what do you mean by that?
AI has a huge part to play allows you to play to a cow's strength/weakness. Plus allows access to good breeding bulls without having to fork out 1000's for them.
We have used bulls that have both high and low ebv bulls with success & disaster.
Always dreaming has got is spot on - but the Vantastic hfr out of umandy - dumandy is very special - she was at smithfield. There is no guratees but you should maybe try a bit of both.
Procters bulls on avg figures have sold very well - see P. Cavalier, Commander etc
AD
Vantastic has had 456 registered calves to date, only 67 have the SOB prefix. having that many calves will make it inevitable that there will be some good ones. Also I would guess that most people who have used him by AI would have been to there best cows, again increasing his probability of having some quality calves. That goes for all the "top" sires.
Sympa who I greatly admire has some 1187 registered calves.
I am sure that there will be plenty bulls in sheds all over the UK if used on so many fantastic females would also look good?
Wow the ebv discussion really really has sparked a debate. Personally for me ebv is the last thing I would take into account when buying a bull. First and most important for me is visual appearance. If he doesnt have the shape and correctness then wouldnt matter how good his figures are
Secondly and prob most important would be the pedigree he has. particularly the dam side. I know some will argue that picking good breeding lines will mean good ebvs.
And as for the ebv's, say a bull with good figures for growth,400 days weight, he s not going to have the same desired effect to each cow. The cow is going to have half the influence on how the calf turns out.Some of my own cows have bad milk figures and yet they are very good milkers so theres more to the world of breeding than ebv's, but everyones opinions are different.
Good luck to everyone exhibiting at Carlise this weekend, should be a cracking sale. Standards have got so high so anyone who can turn out a real one needs due credit.!
Limster, I think you need to go back to your original question. You asked if AI was as good as having the bull there himself. The bottom line is AI will be as good as your heat detection is. The bull will do his own heat detection, with AI you have to do it yourself, so to speak! As for using AI bulls on top cows, maybe the case, but more important will be matching the AI bull to the right cow in terms of correcting faults or improving certain characteristics - put the long, tall bull to the shorter stockier cows and vice versa etc.....
Jonathan
I think you may have missed what I was getting at. At the risk of going into the birds and the bees......
What I was thinking was that an individual straw will probably not have the wiggily one in it that would have impregnated the cow if the bull was there him self, i.e. the strongest sperm may be in some other straw, does that make sense? probably did not explain that well??
Most of the top breeders do not use AI??
I think with just has a good stockman.interesting how at his reduction sales he tends to sell his consistent breeding females in favour of having a herd of show winners . Which dont tend to be the best breeders always.
LMNI
Good way of looking at things, but if you are a pedigree breeder today you cannot do that. For example if you used a bull with a BV of 10, he would only (on average) pass 5 on to his calves, on the assumption that your average cov has a BV of 25 her calf would have a BV of 17, that would be a disaster?
Pedigree breeders are now backed into a corner of using high EBV bulls, that is why it is vital that all the data is varified to be correct.
AI doesn't necessarily have to go on your best cows - some of the poorest looking things produce the best calves. AI is a tool, like ebvs - used correctly it can do you good. I think we're getting carried away on the ebv issue - I'll take you back to a JL point - it's a juggling act - if you have poor figures - using a high figure boost will boost them - if that's what you like. If you're low in milk, you can buy a bull to boost it - if you have easy calving large frame cows you can afford to use a lower cavling ease bull with good muscling - it's all about juggling - just be prepared to drop a couple now and then - after all - no one has produced a perfect animal yet!
Limster -
I think if you look at my comments that you will find that a good animal with poorer figures will still sell. If you have to breed them right first - then you have a saleable item.
as for AI - you really don't get it do you? It's frozen semen that is gently warmed up! We use 2 straws - & ai twice. Granted it's not as 100% as a bull - but you then have a sweeper bull to do that.
Limster, on your point about the right sperm getting to the egg by AI, I'll give you my experience from a sheep point of view. For more than 15 years we AI'd about 180 ewes a year, every time it was all done in one day with a mix of fresh and frozen semen. So in all I guess we did more than 2500 inseminations, in all that time and with the mix of semen I would be hard pushed to spot the difference between those lambs got by AI and those got by natural service as returns. As for top breeders not using AI, I think you're mistaken, I'd say almost all the top herds are using it to some effect and with some good results - Wilodge Dallaglio (30,000gns) and Wilodge Cerberus (50,000gns) the top two priced bulls of the last two years are both the result of AI.
Ad
Sorry I thought it was a given that I meant the best breeding cows.The "top" sires will be used on the best breeding cows in the country. bound to produce some good calfs.
Regarding ebv;
For example you could use one of the highest EBV bulls at 57 on a cow that has an EBV of 10.
The resulting calf would have an EBV of 34, would that fast track to a high ebv be a good thing?
Jonathan
Regarding your experience with AI that is interesting, just wondered if anybody knew the biology of it all? As you will know CW purchased Paragon rather than use AI, wonder why she did that?
I did not know the 2 bull you mentioned were AI bulls although I again would stress my point with the top sires being used on the best breeding cows.
Do you use the 2500 insemination story on a first date?
LC
You have missed my point regarding AI see JL post.
Don't know about anyone else...but I now have a headache after reading all that!... The way I look at it, a stockbull is great, he'll serve cows while you sleep, go to the pub, round the sheep, whatever, as long as he's fertile, youve got no worries, and of course he'll 'stamp' the herd, however, youre restricted genetically to that one bull on the cows you give him, whereas AI is more of a pain in the whatsit, but broadens the genetic base of the herd, makes use of each individual cow's strengths and doesn't restrict you to one bull that might turn out to be a nail... EBV's, dare I even go there, are a useful tool, thats all, they are a guide, and should be used alongisde traditional stockmanship and research when selecting a bull, they arent the holy grail...As previously mentioned, AI then a decent sweeper in after, job done.
Just in regard to miss conceptions about AI
handle the straws right, ensure the animal is on heat
why use 2 straws for AI..... waste of money!!
if the straws are from a reputable source, eg a bull who s semen can survive the freezing process whilst maintaining good fertility there should be no need use 2 straws, remember semen can survive in the tract for up to 30 hours and on average cows will ovulate 28 hours after heat onset.....
often the cows being AI' d are more problematic or are just noticed!!!!!
you made a fair comment limster....
there are some excellent stock bulls being used on probably too few cows or to mop up after AI who s progeny wont have as good of breeding values which in this day and age in a catologue could deter a potiental customer
EBv s certainly have a role but they are not the be all and end all when it comes to a bull