I suspect that there is little apetite or interest on FWispace to debate this farmer initiative. I know when I last addressed this item folk got real grumpy.

I would ask folk to click on the site and look at the document that Richard Longthorp has produced. I believe he is right and that farming has to more than say it is professional it has to prove it.

http://www.lantra.co.uk/agriskills/launch/

I have checked the site as you suggest. I am however, as you know, a doubting Thomas and, until I see what is actually going to be taught, I will keep my natural enthusiasm for top down strategies in check.

To my way of thinking we are "up to the neck in strategies" but, as evidenced on too many forums, the recipients of this strategy and that strategy emerge from school unable to communicate effectively or efficiently. My conclusion is that strategy from the top is cheaper than the tactics of teaching from the bottom. (A touch of the cane was no bad thing)

Strategy announcements lend themselves to photo opportunities for the few, whereas we need basic data input to the many.

Training and Education form an integral feature of life and are not 'add ons.'  

You did not read said strategy produced?

The one with the unfortunate use of pea viner picture.

I am interested in these views because this is what farmers have been doing and produced. (I would not dare to say I have involvement with, because they will be after me again).

It is pointed out to me most often on FWispace, that farmers know have experience and all. Therefore this strategy produced by farmers for farmers, surely must have some validity. It is what they are asking for and doing.

I must sign off now and reply to our man in the west who has just got up, as it is about 10am there.

I too have doubts, lots of talk of strategies, cooperation, the future and new entrants, but no definite words on how they are actually going to practically spread all this amalgamated experience (I know Motley will hate me saying it's based on others experience!!)

I suspect, with the talk of attracting new entrants and highly skilled and environmental stuff it will become hijacked by academics to gear towards attracting graduates into the industry, rather than trying to graduate those who have already begun in the industry.

Motley, You have surpassed previous insults on your posts to this thread.

Whilst it is not acceptable to generalise in your insults, I feel it is now necessary to request that you cease making personal insulting remarks - I  rise later than 9 am myself, but have a physical reason for that so would not be insulted.  A failure to modify your insults will result in me asking the moderators to consider whether you should be allowed to continue posting to FWi. We all know that is exactly what you would like so that you could tell all those people you "know" that you consider to be important that the big bad farmers would not let you play with them, I just thought I would please you by letting you know I am thinking about it.

old mcdonald:

Motley, You have surpassed previous insults on your posts to this thread.

I really don't understand this. However please accept my profound apologies for what ever it is I have done to cause this feeling in you, and others possibly.

Lets see from the moderators, their view.

How do I do this? Where are the moderators?  I am sorry that I am not knowledgable of the moderator or are they moderators. I am guessing that they must be watching this. So please help me out here, and come forward and provide the justice that is asked for.

Just so

old mcdonald:

We all know that is exactly what you would like so

Now I know. I always takes me a while to get it.

I'm with Peter on this.

I most strongly suggest that every farmer in Britain thoroughly reads the document to which Motley links. It will take about half an hour, and you will probably want to go over bits and pieces again. Be prepared to have you blood pressure elevated at times when you read how inept you are and what you need to do in the future. I am particularly wary about the carrot being offered that those who can demonstrate professionalism through CPD and other qualifications might have a relaxation of regulations applied to them and their farms. I would be watching out for the stick that will be brought down on those who do not comply with the strategy.

My opinion of the document in a single word - rhetoric. 

old mcdonald:

I most strongly suggest that every farmer in Britain thoroughly reads the document to which Motley links

Mac many thanks for your support. This is most gratifying indeed, this work has been in gestation for many years since 2002 really. I think that the brute is yet to be born.

I engage in this work and have done for all this period, and this is why I post what I do the way I do. I am lambasted from pillar to post for being anti farmer. I am telling you how it is in the corridors of defra and the unions. Farmers have to address this point. Farmers can sit on their farms where ever that maybe and tell me I am not practical, even though I farm and work as well in another job. 90% of farms are managed by people who work off farm now in the industrial world. So I am in a minority in some ways as the 1% that farms, but I am in a majority that I am one of the 90% that works off farm. I am not like some farms that juggle up ward of 11 or more different income streams. I have 4. This is salary, Government payment, rent and unearned income. The farming operation like the majority makes no money.

What does the policy pervert of london town think when they see a majority on the poll on FWispace about campaign for farmed environment, as either no or not yet? I can tell you but there will be a pile of vitriol come in my direction. It is exceedingly difficult to sit in endless meetings with government which is defra, Regional development agency, RPA, NE, FWAG, LEAF. National Trust, RSPB, NFU, CLA and more, and argue that farming can put its house in order. When farmers don't believe that either they have to or will put their house in order. There is not a political party in Britain, the most heavily utilized land resource through 80% agricultural use and population of 62 million people on the planet, bar Netherlands. This is a mass of about 30 million hectares, a place the size of Iowa and 30 times the population - we have different pressures on land use than anywhere else in the world bar none except the Netherlands (I repeat).

If there is one thing I would ask is for farmers to get involved rather than either shooting the messenger, or saying this is what I pay my membership fees for. -  This document is produced by nfu, farmers membership body. Don't forget people pay membership fees to the RSPB, WWF, Greenpeace and many more of the more than150 consultees of defra. Farmers not being involved or giving grief to those that do creates a certain type of communication. Richard Dawkins has a view about this, there is for me an element of comprehension in his view about the evolution of communication on the web, while I don't either like or agree with him. I am prepared to listen and accept a different view. This does not make the world view of farmers either right or wrong, the world view of society is that there is something wrong in our agriculture at present and we all have to try and fix it. The trouble is no one agrees what the problem is and so we have many spanners both loosen nuts and then re-tightening them.

We learnt from the Netherlands in 1640's and imported the new knowledge. Now 13 generations later we could do no better than re-learn the lessons. Who is giving us thanet earth for example? 

As a YFC member (sort of, only just out of age) I do agree that we need to formally recognise and advertise the skills that already exist within the industry and improve the transfer of this knowledge to the next generation of "agriculturalists", but I am curious as to what subjects they plan to teach and where they plan to teach them? If you want a degree in an agricultural subject your choice is fairly straight forward, Harper, Ciren, Reading or Newcastle, but a BSc can't be for everyone (despite what this government says). We need core skills coming in, mechanics, herdsmen/women, shephards etc, etc but with most traditional ag colleges either closed, on the brink of closing or focussing on non ag subjects, who and where can we teach all these new entrants? Further to this, with the ag colleges that are left focussing on equine, leasure, tourism and, in the case of a college not a million miles from where I'm sat, golf of all things, what sort of message does thins send to those looking at the industry as a potential career choice? "Come to ag college and we'll teach you how to ruin a perfectly good walk" This strategy must start with the retention and care of the traditional Agricultural College!

One line from the strategy did bring a cynical grin to mey face though. "Farmers are no longer just farmers; they are food producers, land managers, energy generators and even flood managers" Surely when farmers were still "just farmers" they were still all of thses things? A little more credit, recognition, understanding and noses in history books wouldn't go amiss from the boys at the top aswell methinks.

 I like the piece you have just written Motley and you have set out the background to many of your comments on the thread very well. I have therefore pasted a few of the opening words of the document for readers to get a summary of what the document is about.

The AgriSkills Strategy seeks to ensure that industries that lie at the heart of the UK’s agriculture and horticulture production deliver a skilled workforce capable of delivering increased food production and tackling environmental challenges.   The Strategy is the first to be developed by industry for industry. It portrays a profession of highly skilled and technically knowledgeable farmers and growers in a priority industry that seeks to be fully valued and seen as an attractive career of choice.  Environment Minister Hilary Benn said: “Farming is a highly skilled profession and all these skills – together with new ones – will be needed in the years ahead as we seek to reduce carbon emissions, look after natural resources, and improve productivity and profitability.

Peter Wells:

In other words they are aiming at those people for whom 'farming' as Motley would say, is not the sole income.

Thank you for the support Peter. I await a good trashing from across the Atalantic soon, it is 06.11am as I write, over there. I will learn about myself some more!!!!!!!!

This concept of professionalism in farming in Britain ain't going away. My take is if you can't beat them join them. It is easier to work from within than from the outside ranting.

I found out about ranters on Dimbleby's programme on Sunday evening. I rather think I would have been a ranter in 1640's.

The AgriSkills strategy is attempting to do a lot of things and one big objective is clear,  to collate the very diverse range of skills that those involved in agriculture have aquired through informal and formal means and convert these into qualification speak that the rest of the world can not only understand but value in all senses of the word. The delivery of the training is also going to be challenging and will need to embrace the full range of communication media and training formats available as well as creating a few new ones, audio/video evidence streamed from your internet enabled field classroom anyone!

If the new career paths can be clearly identified and the milestones linked to competitive remuneration that is worthwhile for all parties to consider then it should be easier to recruit participants from all age groups, including people who are looking to make a career change after a few years work experience in other sectors.

The production of food will clearly have to include industrial farms of all shapes and sizes including 'farms' in places that are far from traditional land based operations. Industrial estate farms producing salad crops, fish and other foodstuffs are cropping up everywhere (excuse the pun) and high rise production units have been designed to further increase our food supply options using more resource efficient and often more integrated systems.

This is exciting stuff to me and I really think this strategy makes a lot of good common sense that understands that we have limited resources and have to use them far more intelligently.

 One thing I find to be irritating(and this is not aimed at anyone, it is just a general statement) is what seems like a preoccupation by some in the UK(I don't see it much here) with getting the older generation out of the way.  I learned a lot from the older generation, their real life experiences have been of much value to me.  Guys like my dad(and I confess I would love to see him retire) who have worked hard their entire lives and paid both their mortgages and their taxes have the right to decide when if ever they step aside. 

For my part, I have not had a thing handed to me(and if I don't quit irritating my parents probably never will).  I own 720 acres and have bought every square foot of it, some of it from my grandparents.  Why would anyone think they had a right 20 or 30 years from now to tell me to get out of the way??

kansasfarmer:

 One thing I find to be irritating(and this is not aimed at anyone, it is just a general statement) is what seems like a preoccupation by some in the UK(I don't see it much here) with getting the older generation out of the way. 

Ah, KF. You think differently to a lot of people here because, and I am not joking, you have a sense of history !

The past forty years of 'state education' in this country has proceeded without inculcating any sense of attachment to either the land, traditions or the institutions of Britain. (This is less true in Scotland however which has somehow managed to retain a sense of its own traditions and rich history.)

Young people have instead been subjected to an experiment in which all cultures, societal styles and individual choices are portrayed of equal worth and that individual failure is of no more consequence than achievement. The anomie resulting from this experiment in nihilism has led to the current situation where human life is of such little consequence, that if life is inconvenient it can be terminated before it begins and when equally inconvenient shuffled out of sight at its end.

I realise these thoughts may be better placed in another thread but arise from an attempt to answer your query.

As to "A New Professionalism,"  All professions, including the oldest, advance only when they have the ability to learn the lessons of the past.

KF/PW, But you see we are not to think along these lines. We who do it do not have the intelligence to go on doing it. We must do as we are told by the "educationalists" just as we have to go along with the Super Dairies so we must have CPD and learn and obtain qualifications.

I wonder how many people these self-appointed "must qualify" teachers have ever supervised. I have had quite a number of professions under my direct supervision, and in some organisations, obviously through various line managers, sometimes a couple of hundred or more. Many of these people had no desire, and often not the aptitude for further education and qualifications. That did not mean I felt them any less worthy. Some of the best people I have ever had working for me had no education whatsoever after leaving school. Some of the worst went straight from school to University and then were "fast-tracked" to middle management.

I do not decry education. Especially in the broader sense. To improve my knowledge of agriculture I began reading "The Smallholder" as soon as I was able (probably about 1951) I sat my first examination at the age of 10, I obtained a University degree majoring in law and accountancy at the age of 46, I sat my last examinations (CIPFA and Institute of Risk Management) at the age of 53.  I could, if I paid the subscriptions, put 12 sets of letters after my name. I also have "certificates" in various farming matters as diverse as Welding, Shearing, Cattle AI, etc. although my favourite is the fact that I obtained my "stencil" showing that I was allowed to class wool under the Australian Wool Board Regulations.  My wife and I returned from a very high income situation in Australia to enable our son to be educated in Scotland. He spent 9 years at University, costing us a lot of money, but coming out with two Masters and a PhD. So do not any of you non-farming people ever try to tell me that we need to be educated in how things should be done. 

And just to stir you up a wee bit more Motley, referring to the document as "rhetoric" is not a compliment.

kansasfarmer:

 One thing I find to be irritating(and this is not aimed at anyone, it is just a general statement) is what seems like a preoccupation by some in the UK(I don't see it much here) with getting the older generation out of the way.

This statement is most interesting in that it encapsulates the significant reason for differences in viewpoints and world view between the world's old and new.

I can do no better that refer folk to an interesting piece by Mark Easton of BBC . This link demonstrates the problems for Britain with inter generational conflict on a crowded island. There is also, if you scroll down a link to a report in this piece. The report has the usual thud factor, it shows some of the factors that are at work.

In essence Britain and Europe have an ageing population and also presently there is upward of 30% youth unemployment. This is why there is pressure on the system and why the old folk are being asked to do something about, because they can, if they want too, (as you say there is no need to pass on to your own, on death, passing on is enevitably), it is after all the fruit of their loins that is having to take the strain on the uneconomic and anti-social system procreated. Perhaps, for further understanding, a place more profoundly affected is Greece (the wondwerful thing about this is people in Britain don't think it will happen here - just wait and see) there is an excellent piece by Paul Mason again of BBC. He spends sometime on his piece looking at the farmers in Greece.

kansasfarmer:

I learned a lot from the older generation, their real life experiences have been of much value to me.

A case in point that illustrates how stepping aside can be done was in our BBC tv Country File program last night which featured a sensitive piece about a shepherd from Wales who was passing on his knowledge by mentoring a new entrant in the gentle art of managing sheep. Why, because he wanted to do something to ensure that sheep were farmed in the hills he loves long after he was gone. The mentoree was hardly in the first flush of youth but had the passion and energy to learn from his mentor.

well from what i read, i have made this assumption, and through general knowledge,

farming you can't just learn in the city, my grandad was a farmer during the 50's and 60's, and my girlfriends step dad has his own agricultural contracting business, and i'm thinking of starting one up myself, but how to say, you can't just teach farming sat in a classroom, you can't teach techniques handed down through the years, if you get what i'm trying to say. the way i look at it, its like fixing a car, its all down to the technique and experience.

i used to be a city boy, and i'm only 18, but i don't think that people should be taught farming skills in the city, i think it should stay a family thing if you get me, eg o my dads dad and his dad etc used to be farmers.  you/we should learn from the professionals( older generations) not some city bloke in a classroom thats given a curriculum to follow by, and what he knows about farming you could write on the back of a postage stamp.

 sorry if i read the question wrong, but thats just how i feel about things like this.

farmer matt:

i used to be a city boy, and i'm only 18,

I guess, therefore, you will be interested in the words attributed to Mark Twain: (just so you know what the future holds)

"When I was 18 my father was ignorant, three years later when I was 21 I was very surprised how much he had learned in that time."

farmer matt:

you can't just teach farming sat in a classroom, you can't teach techniques handed down through the years, if you get what im trying to say. the way i look at it, its like fixing a car, its all down to the technique and experience.

Farmer Matt, there is your way and there are other way's.

Brymore school for example, 60 pupils starting an education with farming very much part of the studies. They arrive at age 13 and finish at Brymore age 18, number from a farming background about 30, the rest come from all backgrounds.

My school was the same, my Dad, ex army captain, no hand me down farm for him, farmed and taught me lots but only about pigs, the school I went to aged 8 started me off in my lifes adventure with farms, farming and now other farmers along the way I went to ag college, university, extension classrooms, theory and practicals on a whole range of subjects. I also joined the British Society of Animal Science and learned more and more from others both farmers and non-farmers alike and hopefully passed on a bit of my learning and experience to others as well.