Farmer Giles Here,

 Some of you may remember me posting earlier in the year about an Anaerobic Digestion plant. I have acres and acres of land spare and I am looking at using this to develop some source of Renewable Energy. I have spoke to a few people and Anaerobic Digestion and Wind Turbines seem to be the most approapiate source of viable Renewable Energy.

I was wondering if any farmers on here, anywhere in the UK have an AD plant or a Wind turbine/Wind farm I would possibly be able to visit to see the pros and cons, this may help me come to a sensible decision on what I will want to do.

 Merry Christmas All, I look forward to plenty of replies !!

 Farmer Giles.

Further to this, I would be interested in anyone with a generating CHP (combined heat and power) plant....

 Thanks

 Farmer G

 

Hello Smiley,

I've been looking at AD and (to a lesser extent) wind turbines for the last couple of years.

We're in a NVZ area and have been sold on the idea of an AD plant, having written off a turbine as being just about (but not quite!) worthwhile.

However, it all changed for us in Sept/Oct this year after a chance conversation at the Dairy Event and also a day spent at the AD expo at stoneleigh a month later.

To sum up; AD is a worthwhile technology, but the size of plant that's needed to make it a no brainer in terms of profitability is waaaay too big for a farm of our size (500 acres). We've oceans of slurry, but even if we could source enough feed stock material to add to the slurry, the amount of money we'd need to invest in building the plant, and the day-to-day effort involved to feed and look after it, just pales into insignificance compared to the actual NO-BRAINER a turbine is!!!

From Apr 2010 (that's not absolutely nailed on yet!), the Govt is throwing money at renewable energy generation like you can't believe. I have some friends who also had the same conversation as me at the Dairy Event with the same bloke but at different times. We've all been foaming at the mouth since! The new Feed-in Tariffs are obscene. I don't know how much you know about it, but for those who don't know anything; the Govt will pay you anywhere from 23.5p down to 16p/unit of electricity generated by a turbine. And that's before it's left the bottom of the mast! You can either use the electricity generated yourself (and save that money) or sell it to the grid for approx 4.5p. So if you have a smallish turbine it will earn you over 20p/unit at the very least. Once you look into this you will see that there's going to be a tsunami of turbine applications going in. I advise you to get your skates on! The reward/investment ratio is very much in favour of putting a decent sized one up, rather than pissing about with a smallish one too. Seriously, stick one up for £400k/£500k-odd and it'll generate around £150k per year for the next 20 years. WITH NO WORK. Have I got your interest yet? And you may get a fair proportion of the build cost paid for by a grant! Once you go over the 500kW size the feed in tariff comes down with a thump to 4.5p/unit, but even at that price a 750kW IS STILL a no-brainer.

My question is; does anyone know of a 500kW turbine that can be sourced that is reliable and efficient and new? We're stuck between a 250kW and a 750kW. The only 500kW machine we're aware of is a 2nd hand Vestas that would come from Denmark that will be 15+years old, and therefore an old inefficient design which may also have reliabilty issues.

Cheers

Ronnie James Dio

 

Bitter experience in the renewable sector has taught me not to count chickens before the cash is in the bank. 4.5p is not enough in a low wind area for an economic return on a second hand turbine. Incidentaly it is also less than new contract power prices from some buyers. Wait until the real announcement, never forget the treasury is empty and feed in tariffs may well be a casualty. Lets see what actually happens.

Google Freebreeze Energy, they had lots of Vestas turbines and may also be able to help locate something closer to home.I wonder if the failure of Copenhagen will reduce pressure to promote renewable energy resources?

The UK's problem is not renewable energy it is any energy. Most of our plant is ancient, we need investment in all types to keep the lights on. I hope the feed in system is implemented as it can make a real difference very quickly. The big installations will take around a decade to get on line. Not too bothered by Copenhagen business wise, just means the oil price rises even faster and I make more cash. Africa will pay a terrible price however and the pressure of displaced people will be felt worldwide.

Very good point He, I should've pointed out about the possibilty of FITs crashing and burning before they're implemented in my post.

I was so enthusiastic about letting people know about all this that I got carried away! And as you say, energy prices are only going one way in the future, so 4.5p could start to rise quite nicely and become a larger proportion of the overall output compared to the FIT element.

We're in the fortunate situation of having good wind speed according to the maps (and experience!) that it's a no-brainer for us. But the whole process takes quite a while so the announcement and possible implementation of the FITs will be well behind us by the time we actually have to commit to putting a turbine up. Personally, I couldn't give a toss about the rights and wrongs of the Global Warming debate in as far as it affects our project. All that matters is a 20 year Govt guarantee of income!! I've said before on here that I think that Global Warming as a debate will have been forgotten about in 10/15/20 years time because the people of the World will have more important things to think about, such as how can I get something (anything!) to eat, and where can I live now my home's under water? What's actually causing a rise in sea levels will cease to be worth thinking about and the time will have come to actually do something about the effects rather than the causes. IMO they should be devoting more time to thinking about THAT right now.

Thankyou for the info, I know about F.I.T's, R.O.C's and L.E.C's etc, which is probably one of the main reasons I'm wanting to invest in AD or Wind.

 What I'm really after is some visual evidence. Ronnie James Dio - Your information is very useful and you seem to know your stuff, do you know of any exsisting AD plants I could maybe contact and possibly visit?

Thanks.

Whoa there Smiley, I never think I know my stuff! I know that I don't know much on these subjects but I'm trying to find out more.

As far as AD goes, I got loads of bumf at the Expo in Oct, but I haven't even glanced at it since which tells it's own story. But I have some names for you in NO particular order!

Weltec Biopower, UTS Biogas, Envitec Biogas, MT-Energie, Xergie, Biogas Nord, FLI Energy, Hockreiter (poss not correct spelling!).

A quick search on Google should give you plenty of info too. What info I've gleaned from the Expo; you need best part of a £million to put up a plant that's capable of generating a whorthwhile amount of electricity in terms of paying back on your investment. You need to be able to get your hands on a good regular reliable supply of feedstock (something which was out of the question on a farm of our size 450 acres). Someone needs to feed and look after the plant constantly, albeit not a huge amount of time. The potential to cock up the mixture, and thus not get any income for up to 3 months while you sort it, is a problem. The FIT rate is lower than for wind power. If you're talking about putting up a decent sized plant (say £2million plus) and will use stuff like food waste and thus be able to charge gate fees, then the return becomes very attractive indeed. There were quite a lot of suits at the Expo which tells its own story! They were obv looking at big plants, and were not farmers as such! If you're putting up a big plant where are you going to spread all the digestate?

We began looking at this because a neighbour was keen on putting up a plant to be serviced by 5 biggish farmers in our area, and he would take all the heat for his chicken sheds. There was a good mix of farm operators in terms of feed stock, but a couple of them were obsessed with how much a tonne they were going to get for any silage they put into the plant, rather than focussing on the income they would get from the electricity. Needless to say it died a death.That would've been a viable operation though.

However, the level of investment, work in running it and income generated by either AD or wind is an absolute no-brainer. It isn't even worth pondering. Good luck in your research though. He-himself sounds a much better informed person than me though as he has turbines up and running!!!

Thanks for the info Ronnie, some good names there and I have already had a few interesting conversions with a number of them.

 I will let you know how im getting on