Are you sure you were running at seven per cent loss, that seems rather a lot, were you really putting 840kg/ha over the back of the CR980 and 1680kg/ha over the back of the Lexion. Thats about 5 times drilling rate at 160kg/ha!

I'm surprised that anyone with a rotary based combine agreed to a stall test. You would have to be brave or stupid to stall test a rotary machine of any colour in my opinion!

recently there has been a lot of new holland love on here, surely the lexion must have something to her otherwise no one would of had them over the years!! will anyone stick up for the green and white beasts??

horsey dave, was the claas competing against both your 980,s? That is what you are implying.

Seven percent is a helluva grain to lose.

If i see more than a seeding rate,1.5 cwt/acre divided by 5 under the straw or 0.3 cwt /acre

, its time to slow down or stop.

A few years ago i was the only remaining claas user in the district, mainly caused by a bad

dealer, but now claas are everywhere, pushing out NH and JD.

There are 5 lexions now in a 3 mile radius.

As with most things in life, speed isnt everything.

Can I ask what "spaying applications" horseydave specialises in?  Cats or dogs?

Hi horseydave, while I'm glad to see someone backing NH with such vervre, I cannot help but agree with the others on this thread when it comes to your stated loss levels when running up against our dear adversaries at Claas. Are you really sure 7% ??  Back in 1996 when Claas launched Lexion 480 they were quoting 5% losses as un-acceptable when demonstrating as they had been used to competing against NH TX66s etc with their Dominators which was a good fight, but since they knew that the TXs gave low level losses and a clean sample, they had to come up with a machine with greater capacity potential to begin to influence NH users. TX's still command high re-sale values which is what Claas used to thier advantage in being able to sell them on the European continent for strong money, made deals do-able for them. Losses with high capacity machines in particular over the last 10 years have been a bone of contention, with even NH 2 years ago begining to quote an acceptable level.

What we have now, is a machine that can deliver clean samples, low losses and massive capacity to greater levels than that of Class. Proven and backed by the DLG German institution, who also happen to be the same people that Claas use for their independant comparison testing. Don't believe me??  Ask your local NH rep to show you the test results he was given at the last update training at Basildon last month.  Regards to all......

jmc1390, i can get almost any claas part off the shelf with a 35 min drive.

NH parts are all next day,,so if you breakdown at 7pm, it will be the day after.

no contest

nixey:

BETTER THAN A MATORDOR

quality!! i think i was asking for that,, i am just suprised at the level of support for the new holland machine, anywhere you look the lexion is there and people seem convinced by there output, i understand the quality of the job that new holand is achieving but i just still like the claas its a proven product, just like the tx's were, maybe im not the most qualified chap to comment on combine performance but like to add my bit!!!

jimc1390  I am bias as I confirmed to you last week on the BIGGEST combine thread, but (and I hate buts) I will give credit where it is due. I have got some arguments for Claas.  

Claas have got a good product and they do have the potential to back it well. My biggest admiration for them is their marketing department. See attached photo I took of thier ad. in this weeks Farmers Weekly. Absolutly brilliant marketing!  Claas knew that the world record was going to be reported this week and needed to respond to it. Well done the bod who did that, but will it convince anyone with an open mind thinking of buying a new machine this year ?  Note the subtle way in which New Holland announce their success. Less is more !    Allow me to pick a few holes in the statements the advertisement makes, point by point.

Power Spreader - Needs 100hp to drive it and costs a fortune to run and to replace an entire set of paddles, especially if the user only needs one side. This part of the machine would simply not get damaged by a foreign object on a New Holland since they fit a trap door on the elevator, meaning any insurance claims you would have to make for damage by foreign objects other than right at the front of the machine would thereby be negated. Would you opt for potentially high cost insurance premium? Well over £500 for a set of paddles alone. Bearings, belts and labour all add up too. This part of the machine works well and does do what they claim, at what cost?

Fuel - Oh dear, you fell for it........... Mr Claas owner, be warned, your Claas combine will cut crop over a large area having used little fuel. What a wonderful bit of non information that is.  Your New Holland rep. can prove to you that Claas uses more litres of fuel per tonne of grain harvested. What the Claas advert does not tell you is the rest of the story. Where was this data collated, what crops, what yeilds, moistures etc. My guess is that this was in an arid part of Austrailia last year when they had a 75% drop in yeild. Anyone could run around trying to find an ear of wheat to harvest and use a drop of fuel doing it. Yes Claas has efficiency,..............poorer efficiency and the DLG independent test proved it.

Jet Stream - Has turbine fans that deliver jets of air blast at intervals accross the width of the machine. There will be pockects of stiller air also accross the width of the machine. Why would you want one part of the sieve to have slower air and part to have just enough air to blow the chaff out in that area alone ? The other option with jet stream is to increase the fan speed bringing the slowest sections up to speed so as to blow all of the chaf out. This is a waste good grain as doing so will begin to blow grain out of the back in the sections where the jet stream is fastest. So then what can you do? I know, monitor the sieve losses and warn in the cab or set the machine to make automatic fan speed adjustments to limit losses. Problem with that is you end up back where you came from. This highlights one of Class's sieve limiting factors. Yes they do have them !  New Holland use paddle fans for full width, consistant volume of air. Claas's turbine fans deliver velocity air in parts of the sieve area, does'nt sound so good now does it ? Remember, "all that glitters is not gold".

APS - Another Performance Sales pitch.   Claas will never admit it, but what they really would like to have is a Straw Flow Beater like New Holland. For years they had a big empty void behind the impellor, which many a Claas salesman hinted towards there being a Claas version on straw flow beater. Sorry old boys, it aint going to happen. John Deere have got something like it now though.   APS is a good feature and should not be over-looked. It smoothes crop flow and improves performance by reducing load on the main drum, it also aids stripping crop off of the top elevator shaft reducing the amount of crop going back down the top of the elevator. Down side is the amount of dust that builds up on the cab windows. Ok fit a dust extractor, at nearly £2000 to rectify a design fault at your cost as an option is not good in my book.

Cruisepilot - Claas came out with this one first, credit where due!  A really good feature, benifit outways cost, order Intellicruise on your next New Holland combine. New Holland sense the load of crop earlier than Claas which means we have a faster response time and give you a greater level efficiency. Sorry Claas we are happliy going to steal your thunder here.

Vario - Yet again Claas came out with this one before New Holland, credit again.  Both camps buy the concept from the same company. I cannot spell the name, but its something like Georinghoff, I think.  Alass, poor old Claas use filler plates when in rape which fixes the knife position and have a need to supply two belts which need to be changed between crops. Time consumming for the operator. Just press a button in the cab for New Holland and the job is done. No sweat, no dust, no time ! Claas operators also suffer having to keep checking the security of the filler plates as they have been known to jump out and go up into the drum. New Holland offer a refined version of the concept and there is a new one on the CR9090 Elevation which is due to filter down to 25ft next year on other models. We can now reach out further than Claas too.

Terra Tracks - I'm not a big fan of tracks, although I can see that for some applications there is an advantage.  New Holland track options offer a wider choice in footprint sizes if compaction is your concern and given the design of the triangular shape and pivoting nature, offers better traction due to being able to ride up over obstructions which reduces the risk of bulldozing in the wet. Rear wheels must be set wide to get the best from tracks, so be sure you know that when you want a narrow combine. Narrow set rear tyres increases compaction again.  Oh, and we do offer a suspension too ! Winter servicing on Claas tracks cost loads because they use a friction based drive system which needs checking, servicing and adjusting. Have you heard about the bags of cement dust in harvest to gain grip on the rollers? New Holland offer a positive lug in slot drive system which does not slip or need as much servicing.  When you buy a New Holland Combine with Tracks, thats what you get. You get a combine on wheels and a set of tracks too. You can then keep the tracks to fit on the next combine and thereby spread the cost over a longer lifetime. Combines on wheels are more saleable because you have a wider target to sell to. Tidue tracks can also be fitted to a tractor for versatility which would also reduce their costs.

Telematics - The ad. is right about this feature with regard to its use as a potential improvement in efficiency. As for fun, well I think thats down to personal opinion, since I'm quite happy getting my own ship in order without worrying about what my neighbour is doing. If you only seek to be better than the next bloke, then you could end up limiting your full potential. I think Claas would do better taking their blinkers off and stop worrying about New Holland so much. They'll deny this comment, but its plain to see when you look at their advert this week, New Holland have got them on the run. We offer several GPS services focused on efficiency that give back real results in efficiency, no league tables with you mate. If you've got time for fun at harvest time, then you've got time for more work. Have fun when you've finnished early !

10.5m Cutterbar - Claas use a split header which has additional supports for the auger that are in the center in front of the intake housing when in work. These act as an obstruction in thick crops or crops that tend to get hung up quickly like linseed. I have a contact in Australia who said that they do not suffer with this element out there since the do not have the crops we do, but also said that he had seen it gather straw in some taller crops. Yes it is a good part of the machine and having seen one working it is an awsume sight.

Challenged Leader in the Field - Mr Hawthorne.... What was your total yeild, losses, fuel useage, moistures, and sample purity like over this period? New Holland has just set a new world record and published a full set if statistics to back it up, it has been recognised by Guiness Book of world records and the DLG who also test for Class, have proven that the New Holland gives a cleaner sample, uses less fuel, has lower losses and still has a comparritive capacity.  Where do you see a problem with a machine like this working on your ground ?

Anyone for Tennis?

well done salesman!! really interesting piece you have written there, i fully agree i think nh have claas on the run and its probably fair after claas have had it their own way for a long time!!

myself i like the tracks on combines but fair point having wheels makes them easier to get rid off, and admire the honesty with the cruise control!!

Biased?.......I don't think so, obssessed would be a better phrase. So yipdy do ,NH have a new combine that looks like it might live with the Lexions...good on them.But untill they have a 100 units out there they would be far better keeping thier heads down and proving it. Until they have I am sure that all the guys out there will keep making thier judgements on what's the best to buy. Having just read the the above from Interested Salesmam it is interesting to make assumptions about who he is? He's obviously just come back from the annual product circus,..ops sorry launch, and swallowed the marketing message hook line and sinker. I also think that he probably hasn't done a lot of combining, because if he had, he wouldn't have taken so much time slagging the Claas, as it is a very good machine. Rather disturbingly for me , who manages a large sales team, his belittling of the Claas product also belittles the buying decisions of the many hudreds of customers who have bought the Lexion product. I also note that in his diatribe he mentioned the name Claas about 23 times, so perhaps subconsciously he really wants to work for them.He should always remember the saying in our industry-"don't bag the opposition-you may end up working for them one day "  

M C Stammer you make a good couple of points here, I think I understand where you are comming from, although I would like to point out that I did comment on what a good product I thought Claas is, (ooops I said it again) and I acknowledge the fact, happily.  I also mentioned my willingness to give credit where due and have done so.  "Obssessed", no Passionate maybe, not obssessed.   I am not knocking them for knocking them sake, I aim to highlight areas where I beleive New Holland are superior in design. There is a fine line between constuctive and distructive criticism, which you seem to be telling me I have crossed.  Maybe my use of the words "open" and "mind" in the blurb above could have inferred quite the opposite, if you read it that way, which would definately have crossed the line in my own book too. I genuinely reffer to the non biased.   Being a New Holland salesman I'm not going to tell you everything I like about the competition, am I ?   As for going to work for them, well I absolutely have no desire to do that.   There is another old saying.....  "Don't burn any bridges, you never know when you may need them."  Bridges are ment to be a two way thing are'nt they ?  I gave up smoking years ago and subsequently no longer carry matches or a lighter. I'll let you work that out for yourself, you seem wise enough.    I used the name New Holland 17 times, John Deere 1 and Claas 23. That was a very astute observation, thank you.  I have used " I " far too many times already in this post, as I'm being defensive if I'm honnest.   A man should be able to exspess himself freely, Ha Ha.  You were right about the training camp bit, all manufacturers reps have to undergo product update training and competitive comparrisons and mine was just before harvest.   I dont swallow or shovel up hill so there's no way I'm going to allow New Holland to hood-wink me with the marketing. By the way at the training camp I suggested to  New Holland that they have got a long way to go in the marketing department to catch up with the likes of Claas and John Deere.   Thanks for your input.

just another point interested salesman, i was thinking today about what u posted a couple of days ago, i remember reading that claas advert and they were quick to point out that the lexion is still the worlds most powerful combine when its is boosting under load, yet the whole hoo har over the 9090 is that it also is the most powerful??? im confused.com! lol

I feel Class made a big step foward in sales when they concentrated on ownership costs per acre harvested,they have been at the forfront on developing high output combines,of which the others have had to play catchup.

That said in my family are three NH combines,when class have been run since they first came to the UK.

jimc1390  I have searched all of my spec and information on the new CR9090 and cannot find anything yet, about specific hp @ any given rpm.  All I can say is that New Holland are quoting 591hp.  Our light green friends quote in their brochure 530hp at rated speed of 2000rpm and a power growth figure of 56hp with a reduction of 100rpm, meaning at 1900rpm you get 586hp.  The idea is that at a more realistic working engine speed, you obtain optimum power.  New Holland quote the same sort of max powers/ power growth figures for their tractors and other machines also, so I GUESS that that will be the answer I get back from the question I put to them.  In the mean time I am able to put the record straight once again, New Holland CR9090 Elevation is the most powerful combine harvester in the world !!!!   The add is a marketing ploy and no more. Little fact.  If we discover that at 1900rpm the CR9090 has less hp than Lexion 600 then I will have to look further into true working engine speeds and see if I can shed some light on the subject for you. In the event that I have to accept having less power than the opposition, I will do so happily given that we out perform them anyway.

Do New Holland still use the high tech spring operated by the equally high tech piece of wire for indicating header height? I hope they have found better electrical suppliers than the ones they used for the TX60 series. Having the seperator start or try to start when you are not expecting it is a good way of keeping the operator on his/her toes as is the unloader not always going out, or coming back in, or starting, or stopping. Different machines, on different farm, in different counties there.

How do these big combines 9090 and 600 perform in corn? I seem to recall cutting 500 tons of the stuff with the first of the 2388 Axial Flows with an 8 row corn head in 1998, but this involved a 6 mile road trip and stop for fuel mid way through the normal working day. I still think an Axial Flow takes some beating, but I've not touched one for 10 years. 

thanks salesman, it will be interesting to see these figures when u get them, it seems to me that they both are claiming the same fact but are goin about different ways to prove it,

I really dont care about fuel per acre and all that. Getting the best from any combine requires 1) a good driver and 2) good support when something goes wrong - and it does with any combine. There are good economies (keeping power harrows in verges) and bad ones (too litle combine capacity, and farm saved seed).

If you want a good driver get one now, pay them well and keep them 'cos they dont make them anymore. If you want decent support, dont buy something from a firm that needs 3 days to get a part from overseas. If you screw the reps down too much where is their margin to keep an inventory?

This wet year will make people start to realise that stretching a combine on a spreadsheet is a false economy. The local big boys on rented class machines are going so fast the sample is terrible and the are loosing buckets full. I dare say if we were going that fast the same would be true of our CX880. Fact is in 11 or 12t/ha crops we are going to be going about 4k - it aint fully ripe, theres loads of grain and straw, and its muddy undreneath. Rushing and cutting wet grain when they could have had more capacity and waited for it to dry. At £1/t/% drying, a 4t crop at 19% costs £20 an acre - you could almost have another combine for that! 

Lasers, GPS, seem like a lot of expense for nothing. We have a yield and moisture monitor. We dont calibrate the yield monitor as it goes to a store anyway, and I can tell if it is wet or dry! Maybe it would be wise to forget these things (and 3d seives for our level plains!) and keep an old TX32 on standby. You can and should manage without all these gubbins. I like levers!

TeslaCoils:

You can and should manage without all these gubbins. I like levers!

i couldnt imagine spraying with the old style controls and pissing around setting preasures every time i want to change my rate! All i need to do now is type in the rate and drive faster or slower as needed, simple no worries!  i think certain electronic controls are a good and productive for example cruise control on a combine is hellish good, keeping the combine at capacity backing off or pushing harder when needed is a handy thing

How much could a good, fully experienced combine driver expect to earn?.

jimc1390  -  Having spoken to one of the New Holland combine specialists with regard to engine powers at specific speeds, I can now clarify the point.

New Holland CR9090 Elevation runs at 544hp @ 2100rpm. If you look at this months edition of Farmers Guide, pages 46 & 47 you'll get a bit of an explanation, although they do not mention there the rpm @ 544hp, which further promted my call to them today.

I have now got my new seasons price list, which is what I've been waiting for, which is quoting 591hp @ 2000rpm to save confusion and any missleading.  With this confirmation they continue the claim that they offer the worlds most powerful combine.

I hope that this helps, regards, Salesman.

thanks for finding that out, i think claas is claiming 586 constantly available horsepower, with no menton of rpm etc this issue is still a little cloudy to me!!

As someone has has just changed from a Lexion to a CR 9080 Elevation there are areas that I would strongly argue that are not quite right with the CR, namely the tracks and header. Our NH vario header has vibrated badly from day one and we are not alone in that respect. This has caused dividers to shake themselves to pieces and cracks to appear on the main body of the header, 2 new pto shafts, 2 new drive shafts, 1 new wobble box. The tracks are very good but they certainly are not a bolt on/bolt off option. A filler plate has to be put in between the axle and the tracks to lower the combine back down to the correct working height/EU legislative height. It is a good half day to do this. 12 mph top speed on the road though is a pain. Other road users only have so much patience! Working environment is far superior to the Lexion as is fuel consumption.