This is a complex subject, so FW is lining up a couple of experts to help answer your queries on December 8.  You can either send questions in on the day, email them over beforehand or post them on the forums...

 I have one.The tag side is clear now, but what about changes to movement forms, flock registers etc? When I take my sheep to a show, will the paperwork be more, less, or the same?

Also how come everyone I speak to has had a defra leaflet about tags, but I have not? My sheep annual inventory arrived saturday, so they know I exist!!!! 

OK Here's my query.

Here we are 4 weeks before the new rules come into effect and 6 or 7 weeks before I will be tagging my first lamb.  As the specs for the new tags have been known for some considerable time and as it appears that no changes will result in the rules following the consultations, why on earth are there still only three tag suppliers with just four tag styles between them approved for use?  It looks to me as though I am going to have to waste even more money by getting some purely management tags for the lambs then waste time having to cut them out and replace them with the official tags in due course.

But hang on, I've still got over 100 tags left of the current variety.  I could use those instead as management tags, couldn't I?  Hang on - probably not as it will surely be illegal to tag something with a tag containing the UK flockmark and a number which does not comply with the new rules.

And here's another one.

Which bright spark decided that we'd all got to re-start numbering at 00001?  Our breed society says we can't have two sheep numbered the same, so we will now have to have one number as the official number and a different one for the breed society.  Up to now we've had the statutory info on the female half of the tag and the breed society info on the male.  The individual tag numbers are the same on each side.  Now they will be different, a possible source of confusion when tagging and as the new numbers will in a very short space of time, be in the same sequence as the numbers of some existing sheep apart from the leading zeros, even more possibility of confusion arises.

This madness makes me glad goats aren't an agricultural animal in the UK!  I can't see ever going back to sheep ...

Thanks for these. If anyone has any more then post them here - or join us for the live surgery on Tuesday 8 December at 6pm - 7.30

What part of goat is not agricultural? The only difference is that,for the moment, we have got away without EID. The reason (and I was in on the DEFRA meetings over this) is that we have less than 160,000 goats in the UK which is the trigger figure under EU law. We have AMLs to fill in, Transport Certification rules and regs etc etc - just the same as sheep.

We  have compulsory double tagging just like sheep at the moment  and in fact, many of the larger goat flocks are on EID anyway. If you are milking 6 thousand its the only way.

To say we are not agricultural risks lumping us with Alpacas which of course have no compulsory ID of any kind, no movement restrictions and are a big health risk to all of us at the moment because of their Bovine TB problem.

I believe it was Ted Heath's government that claimed goats weren't agricultural when they took us into the EU.  We don't double tag: when tagging first came in we continued tattooing as we'd always done and added the tag as specified.  So no real change for us when double-identity came in.  Tattoos as a secondary identifier are perfectly legal.  Our abattoir is just 10 miles away so I can make two return journeys before the transport cert comes in.  Defra, NFU and just about everyone else ignore or sideline goats: the only time they ever get a mention from FW is people like you and I posting on these forums.  No compo if you do get TB.  Of course EID is the way to go if you milk, as with bovines, but a complete waste of time if you only have a couple of hundred animals for meat/fibre and know each one of them.

I don't quite see what threat you have from alpacas?  They die very quickly from TB, unlike cattle/badgers/humans who can harbour the disease for years.  Not many alpaca keepers have any other kinds of stock so although I agree their unmonitored movements are causing them a big problem I really don't see how they are threatening you.  I don't keep alpacas, BTW, just curious about the venom people seem to be directing that way.

The Alpaca/TB issue is that they are currently a risk to their own community and anyone else who comes into contact with them. The skin test which is all that has been available for them until a few weeks ago, is only 20% effective at picking up the disease. (VLA Worcester which has a particular rash of cases at present). Two new blood tests are currently being trialled by DEFRA and seem better at picking it up. Unfortunately they can remain symptom free until the very last stages so may not even look ill. Try Googling Dianne Summers who has a great deal of info on all this and is liaising with DEFRA on behalf of Camelids.

I think you might be very concerned if you had unregulated Camelids walking around the  lanes on "Treks" as we have here. These are often to be seen hobnobbing over the fence with cattle or sheep.We had a North Devon vet who contracted TB after postmorteming an Alpaca here two years ago.

I for one feel they are a valid farm animal and I'm keen to see them continuing to do well and thrive. There's plenty of space for all of us in this shrinking industry. But they must get their house in order over TB first and if that means getting official ear tags and movement restrictions, then so be it. Then at least we can all be miserable together!!!

 How long will it be before all tags which have applied for approved status are approved?

As Jacobus says, there is too limited a choice. I use Daltons U-tags, and they have the i-tag loop as the EID option which has not yet been approved. I would rather use these, as I have found the retention rate excellent and won't have to incur EVEN MORE expense going to a different supplier and having to buy new tags AND applicator!

As for camelids, I think it's only a matter of time before they are regulated - sheep didn't have to be tagged or movements recorded once upon a time! 

 I see the i-tag loop has now been approved! (sigh of relief)

crazysheep:

As for camelids, I think it's only a matter of time before they are regulated - sheep didn't have to be tagged or movements recorded once upon a time! 

As a producer of Cervines (that's the deer family to everyone else including the muppets at DEFRA) I say bring it on. I tag everything at birth with 2 tags, a metal Ketchum tag and a plastic management tag. It makes life so much easier. Also, if tagging for farmed deer was bought in we could poke the wild venison market in the eye with our traceability and really differentiate between the two. I have nothing to fear from the industry being regulated, I'll even embrace EID as a valuable management tool, I can be a right pain on the phone when technology is not working for me!

We'll be having a go at this EID business shortly. Hopefully we'll have a go at answering people's questions.

http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/2009/12/08/119026/Live-tonight-ask-the-experts-about-EID.htm

 Thanks for putting my 'paperwork' question forward, Isabel.

I am sure when defra send the new register out, it will become clear (as mud!) I still haven't had the leaflet about the tags yet! I managed to read it off the website. Hopefully I'll get it before I start tagging the lambs!

Had our full pack of Defra bumph in the post on Saturday, including the sample new AML1 form (to be used from 1.1.2010, but not available from Trading Standards until 'later in January'), which is handy as the last lot of meat lambs are booked in at the abattoir for Jan 3.  Apparently you can download one from the Defra website but you'll have to write out all the details on each copy, and they won't be colour coded.  I'm wondering whether the abattoir will reject the lambs if accompanied by an old style form.

I've only glanced through the pack so far but have come across one little bombshell.  If a sheep born before 31/12/09 loses a tag you can replace it with an old style tag (same number or cross referenced to new number) except that you will not be allowed to replace a missing yellow or black tag with another yellow or black one.  All our tags are yellow so I have three options, get some tags in the old style with the UK flock-mark and old style and sequence numbers in another colour (will the manufacturers be allowed to produce them now?), replace with EID tag sets or break the law.

Just checked to see if our usual tag supplier (Ritchey) has any tags approved yet.  They haven't even though they expected them to be cleared by now.  In total there are only five tags approved so far and no boluses.  Who is doing the testing?  One man in a shed?

 Probably Mr Bean and Mr F Spencer

 At least lambing  20th March for an month gives us more time before ordering though those lambing now have my sympathies

If we all drag our feet and do the bare minimum to stay within the law, perhaps this whole eid business will bcome such a farce that it'll get abandoned like a whole lot of other silly ideas like the Sinclair C5 for example.

Jacobus,

 according to the RPA website, Ritchey do have an EID tag approved. Might be worth speaking to them to confirm this and get your order in.

Thanks, Jonathan.  They must have updated the page since Friday.

Ritchey have put forward three tags for approval, the one I probably want will be approved later this month, they hope.  The third, which can be used with their autotagger, they're not expecting for another month or so.