I never thought that there was a large amount of [dare I say] bad feeling between the scottish and english till I started to read this forum

But it has come up a few times what is the problem and how is it fixed?

For my part i have no problem with any other part of the uk or the people in it

But if the most of the scotts or any of the rest of us for that matter feel they should go it on there own then they should get on and put it to the vote

And the best or british or should that be scottish luck

i thought we are all part of the united kingdon n therefore british, im sure my passport says british citizen so why does there need to be any big deal whether we are english welsh scottish or northern irish, after all we all have the queens head on our money

henarar:

a large amount of [dare I say] bad feeling between the scottish and english

I think you have to distinguish between   'Banter between friends.'    'Friendly competition between partners.'  'Genuine desire for divorce because of real or assumed wrongs.'    ' Boredom.'    'Desire for novelty.'  and ' Genuine ill will.'

You also have to count up the number of those correspondents who keep wittering on about the issue of 'separation.' 

By my count they number three which, whilst sufficient to make a noise, is not a large number.

One hopes that on the question of the possible break up of the United Kingdom. Wiser councils than those heard on this forum will prevail.

 

peter, i have just re read the let them stew thread,; none of us scots started "wittering " on about separation.

HHS merely mentioned how unpopular the cameron veto was up here, and how the SNP had risen in the polls as a result. Is he wrong to put forward his view?

   Many of the Scottish Nats in this part are very much for separation at all costs, or at any cost, and have given little to the consequences of the deal. Many are motivated by a genuine feeling of this being the land of milk and honey and that England is squandering our assets. Some want to side more closely with Scandinavia than Britain. A staunch, and intelligent, Nat activist, and a friend, told me that England planned to build Nuclear power stations along our border. he told me that Norway was the fifth richest nation in the world and that most people there had two houses (maybe not what Glasshouse would advocate). He said Norway is an example to follow (not England). Others, of course want Scotland to be an active state of Europe. Given the latter, Salmond might just find that his new-found dream of Scottish sovereignty is lost as quickly as gained.

   For my own part, as a Unionist. I have to admit that it is difficult to argue this cause when England has allowed itself to have been so badly run down as a Nation. Ironically, by ten years of an appalling Labour Government underwritten by the Scots Mafia. I find it very disappointing that the English did not get rid of them in at least one of the General elections which saw Blair returned. These days are gone now and there is hope again. I think that if Britain can stay intact it will become a better Nation again and even though outside the Eurozone may well play a part in shaping a better European future.

I don't really want to get involved in this, but I will say that feelings are just as strong here in Wales. I'm sure that the Welsh speaking areas would vote for independence tomorrow if given the chance. Should Scotland achieve independance I'm sure it would only be a matter of time before Wales followed suit.

welshnwilling:

I'm sure that the Welsh speaking areas would vote for independence tomorrow if given the chance.

I noted that a number of Welsh MP's spoke up in support of a Cornish Assembly in Parlimant just before Christmas. I doubt it will ever happen but we can live in hope.

Surely any vote on separation is just not up to the Scots or the Welsh alone? Everyone in the United Kingdom should get a vote.

 concreter, I tend to agree with you, but those entitled to a vote at the time had no say in the matter when the Union happened.

The Scots are a bit like having a grumbling adolescent son on the farm, where everything Dad does is wrong and everything needs to change or "I'm leaving". Well by all means leave, but before you venture out into the big wide world, make sure you can survive without the pocket money.

ploughshare, I usually agree with your posts, but that is typical of the English view, and the reason why, if the English are given a say in it, Scotland will be told to leave the Union. Think very, very carefully. How much does England export compared to Scotland, then think again, how much does England put into Scotland, then think again, how much does Scotland put into England. Then think again. Can you actually manage to run the farm without the adolescent son?

...........and sent him homeward to think again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

North Sea Oil belongs to the Scots !

Fair bit of pocket money there eh ?

Just saying stirring.

old mac, you mention that those entitled to vote at the time had no say in it , but they did.

only the lords of england and scotland had a vote, but as the song says, the scottish lords were"bought and sold for english gold"

the people of scotland had no say, and took to the streets in protest. this is the fundamental problem with the union, no one asked the scottish people.

yes WNW, its a lot of pocket money, and worth more every day.

Henarar,

actually,I think there is a lot more animosity shown by English contributors here to the French and Germans than there is from Scots to English. 

a few months ago,at Prime Ministers questions,on national tv, Prime Minister Cameron was asked a question by the SNP about air base closures.The PM answered by saying "if you lot get your way,you wont be flying aircraft,you'll be flying by the seat of your pants." The House erupted in great guffaws of laughter as the MPs,90% of whom are English,made clear their opinion of the Scots and their ability to "go it alone" and have their own defence force like every other normal country.I found the whole episode very insulting and demeaning.When the PM of the UK expresses such contempt for the democratically elected government of Scotland it raises questions as well as hackles.

When it comes to economics,the Scots run a fiscal surplus.We earn more than we spend.Have done for years.England runs a massive deficit these days.England also insists our money is wasted on nuclear weapons and a bloated foreign and commonwealth office.It is claimed that this is essential to keep Britains status in the world.In my opinion it has more to do with providing a gravey train for those and such as those.Scots would be better off by £1000 per man woman and child if we hadnt to continually foot our neighbours bill at the old boys gentlemens club.

What surprises me is that,while the Scots are increasingly giving up hope and belief in Westminster,the English still seem content to accept that cesspit of sleaze and corruption as the best they can aspire to.

Anyway,it will be put to the vote in the second half of this Scots parliament as promised by the SNP prior to their election.Opinion polls show roughly an equal split between those who want independence,those who want the status quo and those who want some kind of federalism.The tory,liberal and labour parties have ruled out federalism and stated Westminster wont accept such a change.And the indications are that the frustrated federalists will support independence if federalism isnt offered.The game is afoot.Interesting times and all that.    

 

 

Peesie,

         I have just looked up on the Scottish Govt site and you are running including the Oil Revenues a 24.6 % Defecit.I dont believe that Statistic, as I dont believe most,question how they are an interpreted Statistic, However what was interesting was that of the whole working population 25% were employed by Govt or Local Govt.Astounding and this could well account for a Defecit of the magnitude shown in the Accounts.

  Where I think perhaps the Scots are correct in their protest is this" Big Government" situation we all find ourselves in.We are Taxed by Westminster,Brusells and even World Insitutions like the UN,IMF,NATO etc,some we choose to belong to but they still set their Budgets and we have to pay.Our Money is not our money,some one has signed it up to another ,be they good like the NHS or bad like the EU we are signed up by people who have very short term Spans as an Administrator or an Idealist with views that may have drastic repercussions on others in the future.

  Here in England we cant do much about that situation but the Scots and Welsh can to some extent and still be under the overall cover of the UK Government.If we could do the same in England by say Regional Govt where we could like yourselves adjust our Tax Spending into how we felt it would represent a better style or use of these resources in our area we too could be better looked after.

  I think the Scots grudge is against this tragedy of bad politicans and Company CEO's who get into control of Organisations and ruin our lives.The EU is a prime example of this situation and even Mrs Thatcher did not deal with the situation as should of been and the present Administration is another example of complete weaknes or no foresight into what a crippling mess this is.

If our Scottish friends want to leave the UK, as an Englishman I have no problem at all ,what I am unable to understand is that if they are so enthusiastic about leaving us why are the SNP not holding a referendum now and giving the Scottish people a proper choice rather than this continuing undercurrent of dislike of the English which one hears every time the SNP make political pronouncements and which I for one find deeply offensive.

If the majority of Sottish people prefer to be allied to the failing EU and in particular to the French rather than the UK I wish them the best of British.

Dick

The Government will hold a referendum on independence in the second half of the Parliamentary term Dick. As promised. I know it is a shock to you that we have honest politics here but that is the fact of the matter. The latest polls now put 9 out of 10 voters wanting more powers for the Scottish Parliament. Cameron is more unpopular than ever. Most Scots watch in horror as the London government considers copying Syria and Libya by shooting its own citizens on the street. It suggests denying the right to self determination of Scots on a regular basis too. Has the British political class gone mad?

the cornish ba#t*rd:

I noted that a number of Welsh MP's spoke up in support of a Cornish Assembly in Parlimant just before Christmas. I doubt it will ever happen but we can live in hope.

Cornwall has always been more like a foreign country than scotland anyway, start a petition, you fella's already have your own flag and everything

BB

the statistics you quote are skewed by the accelerated capital spending programme adopted by the Scottish Government to boost the economy during the downturn.The argument that a country with such a wealth of  resources as Scotland has is incapable of standing on its own two feet simply doesnt hold water anymore.The anti-independence mediia may still be peddling this myth,but not many Scots believe it these days.In fact,it seems that the more  the Scots are told theyre too wee,too poor and too stupid to run their own country,the more it drives them to the independence cause.Probably because theyre sick of being insulted.

     

I remember watching one of Michael Portillo's series a few years ago about how Europeans in other EU countries see themselves as nationals of their own countries and their relationships with other Europeans and with the EU itself. Obviously there were many different concerns across the EU, and it is omportant to note that this was shown before the Credit Crunch and the Euro Crisis.

The reason for my bringing this up is because in one episode I remember Portillo discussing the EU and Spain with some Catalans. I see the exact same principle in Scottish politics and culture as was discussed by the Catalans with Portillo. Catalans regard themselves as being a separate country from Spain, and they have a separate language. Their basic message as I understood it was that they saw the EU as a fantastic thing because if they became governed absolutely by Brussels then they would no longer be governed by Madrid. Being governed by Barcelona didn't even come into it. I thought that they would rather be governed by Brussels, Berlin, Moscow, Washington DC, Beijing or the very pits of Hell under President Beelzebub himself, just so long as it wasn't Madrid! I get a very similar message about Scotland and Westminster from Nicola Sturgeon, Alex Salmond and one or two on here. I honestly don't think that is much of an exaggeration. However, I do think it is a great pity.

I was criticised on another thread here for expressing a belief that the SNP was more left wing than some on here would have us believe. I also explained my belief that the SNP was trying to exacerbate a Scottish antipathy towards the English but also deliberately trying to provoke a greater antipathy from the English towards the Scots. This second perception was not even commented on, let alone denied. It seems that many of those north of the border consider this to be the most natural thing in the world. That is very sad and very destructive.

I do believe that the Union will end in the medium term future. However, I believe that the Euro is going to fail very soon and that is the more important matter right now. Some are saying that the break up of the Euro will be so devasting that it must be avoided at all costs. Others are saying it won't be all that bad. It shall be devastating but it is going to happen anyway, so it is better to get it over with and get back to better growth sooner rather than later. Of course such devastation would be better avoided but it cannot be avoided. It just is going to happen.

As  much as EU politicians are using massive political force of will try to keep the Euro alive, and the EU Single Foreign and Domestic Policy Ideal alive with it, this will be proven futile sooner or later. We have to govern our respective countries and manage our economies as best we can while we do our best within the UK and the EU to manage the demise of the Euro. After the Euro and the European Nation Ideal (as opposed to the Europe of Nations) have been put out of their misery, we shall see what gets resurrected in its place. I strongly suspect we shall see that the EU reverts back to a Common Market with little else of substance other than the CAP, which is what is was when we joined.

THEN will be the time to think about an in/out referendum on the EU and also a Dissolution of the Act of Union referendum for Scotland as well.

Reading these endless comments about the demise of the Euro just leads me to the conclousion that I am a little lightweight in the grey-matter department. I have just not seen it coming.

Lardybloke,

I really think youve got the wrong end of the stick here.Scots are moving towards independence because they see a better brighter future for Scotland as a normal modern democracy.Where you see Salmond and Sturgeon as being anti English in their rhetoric I see them speaking up for Scottland.In a previous post on this topic I gave an example of the UK PM being blatantly insulting to Scotland.Can  you give me an example of such behaviour from Mr Salmond? I dont think you are insulted.Perhaps its more the case that your feelings are hurt because we think we can make a better job of running our country than Westminster can.  

Peesie,

          The accounts I quoted from were for the year end 2010 are you saying the Govt has spent Monies not in the Accounts and or where did this Money come from.I believe you receive about £ 34 Billion Block Grant from Westminster plus I suppose Local Authority Taxes,does Westminster allow your Parliament to run a Defecit with the UK or where else is this Capital Spending being Financed from.

peesie:

MPs,90% of whom are English

So you reckon that 585 MPs are English do you?

In fact, there are currently 533 constituencies in England, 59 in Scotland, 40 in Wales and 18 in Northern Ireland. As there are, from memory, 53 Scots representing English seats.

It appears your figures are out by a significant number and that the number of MPs of English origin. If we then include the 14 members whose origins are from elsewhere in the world, the figure is 468 not the 585 you claim.

Given also that each Scottish seat takes 44.000 votes to elect a Westminster MP but it takes 56000 English votes, I reckon there is somewhat a disparity in favour of Scotland.

If you are to debate something as important as the future of the UK (Which comprises more than Scotland) then it is as well to examine what the facts are from many angles. All of us (including me) are pretty good at arguing our own selfish interests but in this case there is the future of our children's children at stake and, as it is sure that none of us will be around to see the results of our decisions, we would be wise to avoid making the errors the SNP are convinced their forefathers made. Personally I would rather our decisions be based, not on the assumed mistakes of our ancestors, but on our own hopes and vision of the future.

In the case of the SNP I say again, it has a narrow vision for Scotland in which it hands over responsibility to unelected Brussels bureaucrats and insular European politicians.

If the SNP think that Scotland will have the political power in Europe that it exercises in the UK (see the figures above) Mr Salmon is due a surprise.

 

 

Peter, can you clarify a point. Is it that the bureaucrats are in Brussels that is the problem or that they are un-elected. If it is the latter, at what point in time did Westminster bureaucrats become elected? I still watch DVDs of Yes Minister and I am not aware that anything much has changed! Or is it that you consider that the Brussels bureaucrats are unaccountable to the European Parliament?