Im sure they have put alot of work and effort into the report here (and probably alot of money) however i could have told them that, and would have only charges them a tenner!

 Seriously, its no surprise that this has came about and been said but actions speak louder than words - its all fine and well saying it but what are they going to do about it!?

 Without disrespect to FW but when you see the 'Young Farmers Award' it does make me wonder how/why all the young farmers are in the 30's!

Reckon we need more than PR, support for education, decent wages and returns, a realisation of the scary demographics and future food shortages would only be the start.

we need more than PR.

We need to scrap defra, bring back MAF, bring in a paper on food from our own resources, like 1979.

increase the number of small farms available for rent on proper terms, not fbts.

How to do it is the trick. The demographics of agriculture (Scotland anyway) are catastrophic, education is very expensive and rewards are poor. The economist has an article just now on the "Food Crisis" we will face, they reckoned a donkey was an incentive for an Ethiopian farmer. What incentive is there for our young people?

just a quick word from me : the younger generation

14 y.o,

i want to get involved in agriculture/farming however i can see the there is a very thin margin between profit and loss and in the current age as soon as you fall into a bit of debt your buggered. so i think that the main problem is the small amount of money that the farmers are getting paid for their produce, if this increased im sure the future of farming would be much more secure.

thanks louis

matty s:

Without disrespect to FW but when you see the 'Young Farmers Award' it does make me wonder how/why all the young farmers are in the 30's!

Hi Matty, that's a fair point. I guess inevitably it tends to be the "older" young farmers who end up doing better in the Awards - simply because they've had slightly longer to get established and prove themselves. Poeple who are, say 23 or 25, probably haven't had long enough to make a real difference to a farming business.

That said, it's the 16-21-year-olds that our industry needs to attract. I sense it's doing this a lot better than it was 10 years ago, but there's still a long way to go.

He his-self:

education is very expensive and rewards are poor

Really.

can you expand? As Sir John Harvey - Jones put it  or words to effect "If it was not for science in agriculture we would all still be hoeing"

Farming expensive and rewards. Take one cow and milk lose money, take a field plant and lose money. Education take a school may be 1ha invest money in buildings and produce youngster to pay tax and contribute to pensions for the old folk. Hmmmmmmm? I have never understood farmers aggresion towards the local school, it is however a default position of the industry.

I guess we are unable to agree on Schumacher's assesment.

“Education which fails to clarify our central convictions is mere training or indulgence. For it is our central convictions that are in disorder, and, as long as the present anti-metaphysical temper persists, the disorder will grow worse. Education, far from ranking as [our] greatest resource, will then be an agent of destruction."

You may also like this article http://www.schumachersociety.org/publications/orr_92.html

Enjoy

matty s:

however i could have told them that, and would have only charges them a tenner!

Are you saying that you could have taken the FW headline about the RASE report - about the need to improve PR? and charged them a tenner. Or you could have written the report and staged the conference for a tenner? Rest assured the pulling together of farmers to improve the chances of youngsters coming into the industry is like herding cats. Farming view this as some one else's job. The 'they' you refer too.

"This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody, Anybody and Nobody.There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. Somebody got angry about that, because it was Everybody's job. Everybody thought Anybody could do it, but Nobody realized that Everybody wouldn't do it.It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done." 

This is a time honoured argument in respect of getting new blood into farming, not unique to British farming.

The trouble is most people outside farming and this is 99% of the nation understand that farmers are losing money and there is no future, such is the number done by farmers on their fellow man. Now I know different, what attracts youngsters to a job it is money and conditions. Teachers believe that the wage on farm is about £15,000 per year. I know because it is my job. However I know mangers in farming earn in excess of £80,000 per year, the average is £50,000 per year for example. Farmers prefer to promulgate the story of poor conditions down on the farm and to keep wages low, or import "keen" youngsters from Ireland, Poland or other places. The trouble is exacerbated by British youngsters who think that they are entitled to walk into these jobs and rates, so fall for the PR of the city and estate agents work conditions. We have a lecturer from Nigeria here and he cannot understand why British youngsters feel the way they do towards education, but back home they are prepared to walk 20 miles a day just to go to school. So who has stopped our young boys and girls thinking school and eduaction is a bad investement of their time?

The troubles in farming are further compounded by the NFU, who as you say talk about it and do nothing and government talk about it and do nothing. The reality is youngsters take a first option of perhaps equine or small animals and then come to farming later. The new blood comes from people making money elsewhere and investing in farming or follow a path like Tim Waygood (see links), though many condemn such ways as not real farming.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/741955.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8102987.stm

Happy days.

 

There's another problem - and one that drives me a little mad. I think some farmers have a tendancy to sneer at the efforts of those not born into agriculture. A good example would be the early days of Jimmy Doherty. He may have won farmers around now but before that there was lots of catty comments about 'What does he know about farming' etc

I know there are plenty of people that do encourage people who aren't from a farming industry into agriculture (Matty for example has been helped by a couple). However, I'd suggest there are probably more that hold the view that if you aren't from a farming family then you won't be any good. That's rubbish - just because you are the son/daughter of a farmer it doesn't mean you are automatically going to be a good farmer (sorry, to be so brutal, but this is how I see it).

There are some brilliant first generation farmers out there (a number have been winners of an FW award). They've had to battle the prejudices of some to get there though.

motely just speaking as I find. No1 son is off to uni this autumn. His loan does not cover his accommodation (the cheapest he can get) let alone living expenses. We live 20 miles from the nearest town, no jobs for him yet as he has no driving licence. Test centre is 30 miles away with a 3 month wait. He will have 4 years of hard work just to get a degree, what awaits him? No job, no savings, no overdraft, no chance? His best option is to max out his student loan then emigrate so he does not have to pay it back. Wages of £80k may be common in arable farms in England but here only oil pays so much, every other male classmate has gone into the oil industry ( including every other farmers son), he is beginning to think they are right.

Isabel you are so right.

Nothing against anyone personally but it is the Jimmy D's of this world who will attract new blood into Agriculture not the curmudgeonly attituded moaners!! I too have experienced a great deal of sneering from those born into farms often particularly ones who have felt it unneccessary to attend Ag college as an "I can teach my son everything he needs to know" attitude has ruled. Well to be honest I am quite happy to see those businesses fail they are not too important and their demise gives some others of us who have not inherited all, the chance to get in somewhere.

Children arent born being farmers neither are they born unable to learn how to be farmers and it is a more nutchuring attitude that is required to encourage youngsters into what is a fantastic way of life.

PR and marketing through new technologies is all well and good but getting into schools and getting kids on farms (OF Sunday, etc) and enthusing children with the very passion that gets you up to the cow in the middle of the night or has you combining for 12 hours plus is what will bring them in.

However it does also need some support for Agricultural apprenticeships to help the industry to provide base level jobs for eager teenagers, etc.

Thanks for your comment.

freshfromthefens:

However it does also need some support for Agricultural apprenticeships to help the industry to provide base level jobs for eager teenagers, etc.

 

I think this is a good idea. I'm not quite old enough to remember, but even 20 years ago didn't we have the old YTS scheme which people used to help ease themselves into the industry?

To clarify what I meant. I am not against No1 son going to uni. I fully support him what riles me is the cost compared to the oil sector. They get summer work placement (paid) a fully funded course and a golden hello at the end. An agriculture degree is more expensive and less well rewarded despite being even more essential. PS I went to Uni too, a degree is the minimum we should aspire to, if it works for nursing it should work for agriculture.

Presumably when you say 'the oil industry' you really mean individual oil companies most of which are large, rich organisations.  They have the money to devote to ensuring that they have the pick of the best graduates and if they sponsor students then when they qualify they arrive with a detailed knowledge of the business through their holiday work.

When you look at 'agriculture', whilst there are large agri-businesses which offer similar schemes, the majority are smaller and often very small businesses.  It is difficult to conceive that these businesses can afford anything on the same scale.  It is also true that, except in the very largest agricultural business, there is probably little possibility of developing anything like a planned career.  This is especially true of the farming side of agribusiness where I suspect that the ultimate ambition of most new entrants is to farm for themselves, not to work for someone else.

As author of the report I want to chip in to say that farming needs to work together to match and offer better than the bigger industries. Smaller farms could work together to offer a 'farming ladder' of increasing responsibility and challenge as recruits show they can cope with more after due experience and training. I understand, for instance that the logistics industry which also has a lot of small businesses, has a 'transfer' system where a fee is paid to the firm transferring the person out to cover the cost of training them to the level they are at. (And presumably you could pick up a broken down old b like me on a 'free' and pay him on results like Michael Owen at Man Utd. This might not be the answer but we need to think out of the box to come up with similarly imaginative solutions. And we need to get across that you don't need to be 'the farmer' to have a satisfying job. As farming becomes more diverse and larger scale there are more and more management opportunities on offer. I reckon that about 1,000 of the 6,000 recruits we need a year will be for management roles

 

Motley - i meant tell them that farming needs to improve PR!

Isabel - your spot on, sometimes the older generation needs to move over...ive experienced it where the older ones have done it all there life and dont really want to take on new ideas or new ways to do things, however despite this, these older people need to play a important role in encouraging new entrants into the industry - after all....who else are we to learn off - theres only so much you can do in a text book!

Tim - I completely understand that, and dont get me wrong, the awards are a great idea however i feel it would be good to encourage some of the younger ones who may be havent got an established business etc and people who are getting into ag - theres some great people on here, some great younger ones who have passion, drive and enthusiasm - Sam Star, Pasty, Ben (dont know his forum name) etc

Well I am going to go against the trend here, farming is in the marketplace like all other industries. If it is profitable it will attract new entrants, the more profitable the more desirable a career. If it is struggling to provide a decent living for people, why worry if it does not pull in people to slog their lives away for peanuts?  However as farmers retire there will ALWAYS be someone willing to fill the gap. 

 I agree with Isabel, people outside farming deserve a chance and should be treated with respect, however a grounding by living on a farm and learning from an early age may give  some an advantage over others as will inheritance of a farm, but life is like that.

I also can not agree with the view that a degree is essential for a career in agriculture. Some of the most successful farmers I know left school at 15, and as far as college goes locally there does not seem to be much correlation between education and success, a bloody good business brain coupled with a work ethic is much more important.

farmerbill if only what you said was true. We have land abandoned now next door to us, there are only two farming families left in our Strath. A degree is the least we should aspire to, decent wages and conditions too. We cannot afford second or third best, hard work is just not enough, generations of Scots carved out our farms, they were cleared just the same.

i,m glad soeone mentioned jimmy docherty, who did a great pr job,and communicated very well to joe public that farming is no bed of roses.

Did anyone see the episode when the lease was up for renewal after 5 yrs?

He had leased the empty field of scrub and weeds 5 yrs before, and had created a thriving business out of a wilderness. He had built sheds, a shop, cultivated the land, put in a road,etc,etc,etc.

Then the landlords wanted to treble the rent, which would have made things very hard if not impossible.

But having put in yrs of hard work and cash, his choice was pay up or leave. The next programme didnt mention the outcome, i suspect due to landlord pressure.

He fell victim to the oldest trick in the book, practised by british landlords for centuries ,for their own enrichment and the ruin of generations of young and old farmers.

A tenant of this farm wrote in 1885 "young men who wish to farm, should not become involved in the onesided british farm tenure system, but take themselves at once to america or australia,where land can be purchased on reasonable terms, and prosperity beckons"

He wrote that after his landlord had relieved him of £15,000 worth of improvements for nought, thereby rendering him nearly destitute at age56.

His words are as valid today as they were in 1885

Can we quantify how many new entrants we're looking to recruit?How many farmers and skilled farm workers are there today and how many are we likely to need in 20 years time? If all the land was being farmed with the biggest and/or most efficient machinery available there would surely be a huge surplus of farmers and skilled farm workers today.Most farms are using equipment which gives an output per man nearer to a pair of horse than to what the biggest machinery is achieving.This situation is changing daily as farms get bigger and output per man increases.

The numbers are difficult to estimate but the report says we need about 6,000 a year. I think they need to be talented people because of all the challenges farming is going to face - producing and marketing more food and energy, looking after the environment, coping with climate change etc. The future is not going to be like the past. I don't think the penny has dropped about how different it is going to be. So we need people who are well trained for the challenges they face and prepared to learn continuously throughout their working life. To attract them farming and its associated industries needs to offer attractive modern jobs with pay which is good enough for them to afford decent housing. This will be a big ask for many parts of the industry which are currently unprofitable but its not impossible - there are plenty of initiatives going on which are beginning to make a mark but they all need bringing together to increase their impact and get the gaps filled. I hope the RASE will pick up the report and make some of these things happen.

Isabel Davies:

There's another problem - and one that drives me a little mad. I think some farmers have a tendancy to sneer at the efforts of those not born into agriculture. A good example would be the early days of Jimmy Doherty. He may have won farmers around now but before that there was lots of catty comments about 'What does he know about farming' etc

I know there are plenty of people that do encourage people who aren't from a farming industry.  However, I'd suggest there are probably more that hold the view that if you aren't from a farming family then you won't be any good. That's rubbish - just because you are the son/daughter of a farmer it doesn't mean you are automatically going to be a good farmer (sorry, to be so brutal, but this is how I see it).

Tell me about it!  I know first hand how difficult it is to become a first generation farmer....Whenever I've done anything or meet people they always ask "What's your background.  Why you interested in farming"?  I've learn't that I have to say "My uncle and cousin are farmers".

And as you say Isabel there are some good supporters of youngsters who haven't got a farming background.  I know a few lads and lassies that have some good support who I'm at college with.  Having said that "They" [the youngsters] are all of a type.  Keen, interested and show enthusiasm.  If you want something very much then you'll put the time and effort into it.  Those are the kids that reap the rewards and I would suggest that those are the kids that any farmer would help if they encountered them.

Farmers do not suffer fools gladly, they may become fools by not supporting each other and working as a team, but they will not suffer it in others.

If you want to know how difficult it is to be a first generation farmer, read my blog series,  "Diary OF Becoming a Farmer"

I'm someone who has earn't some money to be able to become a farmer and still have great difficulties, from being snubbed by agents to not being able to get the education.

Matty S is someone who should get on in farming providing he keeps his head sqaurely on his shoulders and spends the next few years quietly leaning he should be well on the road to hard work, with a little success at least, I hope 

Isabel Davies:

However, I'd suggest there are probably more that hold the view that if you aren't from a farming family then you won't be any good. That's rubbish

 

 

As an older farmer, who you youngsters are pointing at to give the younger generation experience, just look for a minuet from our point of view.

There are huge implications on taking on a youngster whom you may or may not know. As a farmer son (1938 vintage), when we ( I have three brothers) were fist getting our first grounding, there was always the older farm workers as well as father, who would soon put you in line and keep an eye on you, how you did things.

The same size farm now (250acres) there is only one, yours truly, to do the work, and would only be too willing to take a youngster on.

Safety is the biggest worry, as they would be sent off on there own, after having instruction and direction, but the "come home safe" campaign brings it into sharp focus. There are so many dangers these days to the inexperienced, and the reasonability is all mine, it is not possible to give one to one tuition all the time.

I know some drive tractors responsibly and sensibly, but there are others as well, how is it possible for me to know how choose a person to trust to "come home safe".  

Connached, i think you will find that farmers generally employ the most efficient machinery/ methods already.

When i mean efficient, i mean financially efficient, which is the most important. That means in my case running a seeder worth £10k , not £70k, and two £40k appreciating combines rather than a £250k depreciating monster which we cant repair.

I take some pride in finding work for 2 drivers and a mechanic, when the "experts" tell me i should only employ one.

The conditions of today echo those of the 1880,s, when whole estates and counties were cleared of crops ,tenants and workers, and sport was the in thing, as new money came into estate ownership. Imported cheap food from the colonies ruined many farmers just like today.

This policy led to the near starvation of britain in 1917-18, and again in 1941-49 and who knows , with food self sufficiency at a record low of only 60% under new labour , it may happen again.

 

 

fretaw:

Isabel Davies:

However, I'd suggest there are probably more that hold the view that if you aren't from a farming family then you won't be any good. That's rubbish

 

 

As an older farmer, who you youngsters are pointing at to give the younger generation experience, just look for a minuet from our point of view.

There are huge implications on taking on a youngster whom you may or may not know. As a farmer son (1938 vintage), when we ( I have three brothers) were fist getting our first grounding, there was always the older farm workers as well as father, who would soon put you in line and keep an eye on you, how you did things.

The same size farm now (250acres) there is only one, yours truly, to do the work, and would only be too willing to take a youngster on.

Safety is the biggest worry, as they would be sent off on there own, after having instruction and direction, but the "come home safe" campaign brings it into sharp focus. There are so many dangers these days to the inexperienced, and the reasonability is all mine, it is not possible to give one to one tuition all the time.

I know some drive tractors responsibly and sensibly, but there are others as well, how is it possible for me to know how choose a person to trust to "come home safe".  

Very valid points Fred. Things are difficult when you are a one man band and I didn't mean that people should let people they don't know onto their farms and tractors! I just hope people can be open minded about the skills that people who haven't been lucky enough to be born into a farming family might have.