Anytime now DEFRA will be publishing its annual farmland bird indicator, looking at trends in bird numbers in the British countryside.

The indicator is expected to show certain key species under continuing pressure, with the finger pointed at modern agriculture.

Our friends at the RSPB have therefore offered to answer "the sort of hardball questions farmers ask" on these issues.

I've thought of one or two - such as "how do we know the indicator is accurate?" and "how can the RSPB justify buying up Grade 1 land in the fens to return to bird habitat at a time of global food shortage?" I'd also like to know how significant these findings are in terms of directing future policy in the countryside and what can farmers do to mitigate the effects.

But I'm sure FWi users can come up with more "hardball" questions than that. So, if you've got a burning question you want to put to the RSPB, now's your chance....

Phil Clarke FARMERS WEEKLY

What was the Magpie count for 1998 or thereabouts?

What was the Magpie count for 2008 or thereabouts?

Are you going to help with my motgage payments if sea eagles steal my lambs?

phil clarke:

"how can the RSPB justify buying up Grade 1 land in the fens to return to bird habitat at a time of global food shortage?" I'd also like to know how significant these findings are in terms of directing future policy in the countryside and what can farmers do to mitigate the effects.

I would like to know what has happened to the bird populations on the areas now under RSPB control. All I've heard about farms that have been bought by the RSPB is that the birds they wanted to help have left the area when they moved in, from Corncrake's in the western isles to Hen Harriers on buccleuch estate or have i just heard the horror stories.  

Why do RSPB persist in maintaining the fiction that bi-annual trimming or tri-annual trimming of hedges is beneficial to birds?

Have RSPB carried out trials to determine this?

Has anyone at the RSPB noticed the quantity of fruit carried by an isolated untrimmed Hawthorn? 

Does anyone at the RSPB realise that common hedgerow species such as Elder, Hazel, Ash, Wych Elm etc. can grow up to 2 metres per year on strong roots?

regards

How would the RSPB respond to my view that sparrowhawks should be returned to the legitimate quarry species list ? They are much more damaging to other bird species than magpies, jays and crows but remain protected. Why ?

 Are you serious about this?

 What on earth are you playing at Phil? The RSPB (though admittedly not without its faults) has championed environmentally sympathetic and sustainable farming for many years now.  Frankly, the bird indicators allow fluctuations in bird populations to be measured, year in year out so that we are as well informed as we can be as to the effects of farming practice, amongst other factors.

 This is the most childish forum I have come across in a while. Frankly, all that is happening here is when somebody doesn't fully accept and agree with the propaganda line at Farmers Weekly, this sort of trash starts coming out.

 No one, least of all the RSPB, is claiming that the system as it stands can be tolerated by farmers. I (for the record) am the son of an active farmer and I see the day to day pressures involved in modern farming.

 However, I also see that the farming practices which were implemented after the 2nd World War are no longer acceptable. Practices I might add, which were prompted by subsidies to farming from the Government (this wasn't something farmers came up with themselves). Why are farmers rebelling against reforms? Frankly, your time would be better spent fighting to ensure the reforms are fair and appropriate (and there is much to fight...), rather than fighting reforms in principle.

 The best way to do this is to work alongside other groups, like the RSPB, like the Soil Association (who have also recently come up against criticism for daring to speak out against pesticides) and others who are prepared to ensure that farming can continue in its current role as stewards of the countryside.  

Farmers need to understand this, Industry, Governments and everybody else is scrutinised over their actions, so why shouldn't farmers be?  I do not believe that every farmer in this country is squeaky clean. The vast majority however, have nothing to worry about.

And as for the comment about Global Food Shortage, what on earth is that about....like crop prices in Europe are tolerable in developing nations. Wake up FWi.....

 Essex farmer Guy Smith has e-mailed me some more questions for the RSPB as follows: 

Why is the the FBI limited to only 19 species when most farmers see more than 50 species on their farms ( here we count have over 130 different species in an average year).

What is the definition of a farmland bird and why are common farmland birds such as crow, sparrowhawk, collared dove, barn owl, mallard and chaffinch not on it?

Why is the magpie considered a farmland indicator species by Birdlife international on the continent ( RSPB are the lead member in Birdlife international) but not an indicator species in the UK?

reasonable farmer:

Are you serious about this?

 What on earth are you playing at Phil? The RSPB (though admittedly not without its faults) has championed environmentally sympathetic and sustainable farming for many years now.  Frankly, the bird indicators allow fluctuations in bird populations to be measured, year in year out so that we are as well informed as we can be as to the effects of farming practice, amongst other factors.

 This is the most childish forum I have come across in a while. Frankly, all that is happening here is when somebody doesn't fully accept and agree with the propaganda line at Farmers Weekly, this sort of trash starts coming out.

Don't shoot the messenger "reasonable farmer"! The RSPB came to us and said they would like to comment on the farmland bird indicator results out later this week. We thought this a good idea and decided a Q and A article would be the best way to tackle it, so put it up on the Forum to give farmers the opportunity to put some questions. That's all. I don't see how this is childish, propodanda or trash.

 Do you have a question for the RSPB?

What are the target populations that the RSPB have for each species?What are RSPB doing to reduce cat numbers?Do they have a recipe book featuring pigeon?

Hear's a hardball question for the RSPB,

 " Can you deny that the reason you repeat the untruth that Magpies do not kill song birds, is because to do so would, in the view of your marketing people, make it more difficult for your donors to understand how it is that you can support the culling of some birds whilst at the same time promoting the welfare of others?" "In other words you are more concerned to have an apparent consistency of message than you are in the welfare of small birds killed by avian predators, the control of which you oppose."

Can anyone telol me what the 19 species the RSPB classifies as 'farmland birds' are?  I've searched their website in vain for this info.

All farmers and landowners should support the Songbird Survival Trust. This is a young organisation following up what for the RSPB are controversial issues, but they have attracted the support of Her Majesty The Queen who perhaps would like to see all sides of the Songbird issue debated. See http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk  and read through the whole site - and buy their excellent Christmas Cards!

Sorry to say old boy you seem to have a mixed up mind and your analogies have no base.If it were Arable Farming affecting the level of song Birds we would not be seeing the drop in other areas of Agriculture but there is.People have experimented [myself included] with getting rid of Predators of song Birds and their numbers have increased dramatically.The main Predator being Magpies whose numbers over the last 40 years have increased expoentially and who take both Eggs and young and when in such dominance there is no chance of the Song Bird population recovering.Take away the Predators and there will be song Birds,proven beyond doubt by many people accepted not by RSPB then conflict and as Farmers control the Land the RSPB is dissociated from its hinterland, a couple of Channel 4 Documentaries and your subscrptions will dry up and all the Dipsticks will be out of a job and all because you would not listen and look at proper evidence that costs no money except to have people that can analyse what Stakeholders on the ground are telling them.

   Roll up to the Guillotine of Ignorance and put your Head on it RSPB or see the light and get real.

craman:

the Songbird Survival Trust. This is a young organisation following up what for the RSPB are controversial issues

craman. Thank you for the web address. I have checked the site which seems to say what many of us have known for years and which Burocrat Basher's latest offering reinforces. Predators kill song birds!

The RSPB refuse to acknowledge that because they think their income will fall if they are seen to be supporting a balanced bird population which includes culling. In other words, they are more interested in their own jobs than the interests of the birds. I realise that I am being a little hard on many people in the RSPB who are genuinely interested in birds, but the facts are plain for all to see: Magpies, Raptors, and Cats kill song birds. The Song bird survival trust recognises the importance of a balanced population and this means culling.

If the farmland bird population, according to the RSPB, is going silent, then the silence from RSPB in answering the first very simple question on this thread is positively deafening.

How fascinating to see (RSPB/NFU Loggerheads) that in spite of all the eco schemes over many years, including the existence of setaside, bird numbers are in the main falling. Someone somewhere is getting things very wrong - time for a re-think and change of song RSPB? You'd better be quick about it and get real.

I was wondering whether anyone has thought about the Seagull population that seems to follow every plough, surely these species are out competing the farmland birds through eating a source of nutrition of the farmland birds?

Have the numbers of competing birds increased in the reported decreases of farmland birds?

Farmers Weekly of 7 November 2008, page 14, appears to be a full page advertisement/reminder of the standard, pc, mantras of the RSPB. The most "up front" line of questioning on the thread re predation was selectively (and by FW, permissively) ignored. Why? 

Thank you 'craman' for pointing out this article to me. As I perceived the general 'tone' of the questions on the thread they were certainly more assertive in asking the RSPB to justify its position, particularly on the subject of predation. As you suggest, the article on Page 14 does not carry either the tone or the general emphasis of the questions raised by us.

I am guessing that the FWI editorial team felt that 'assertive questioning would not receive a reply from the RSPB and so it was either, make the questions nice and pleasant or have a blank space to fill with something else.

My own view however, is that it is the job of FWI and other farming ancilliary activities to represent the views of the agricultural and country community particularly when it specifically asks for those views. In this instance I would have liked to have seen 'hard' questions asked, which compelled the RSPB to justifiy its own assertions regarding predation. The RSPB, after all, earns its living by claiming a kind of moral superiority for its views on bird preservation and solicits millions of pounds in donations, grants and legacies in pursuit of aims which impact on farmers, and which have been anecdotaly, and, to some extent scienfically, shown to be wholly or partially incorrect.

I have now read the article 'Bird Count' a number of times, and it appears as if the questioner and RSPB official were conducting their interview one warm summer afternoon whilst sitting in cozy chairs and enjoying a nice civilised chat.

Come on FWI. When your readers take the time to set both a topic and tone for questions such as this, you should at least let that tone and and topic come through in the magazine.

As a Saffie project farmer I would like to ask why in the summary leaflet was the high level of predation found on all 27 project farmers farms only noted on the last pages in a small paragraph.  It was the most important message that the project raised but due to political correctness not highlighted.

On my own farm there was only a 22% nesting success due to mammalian predation which was also the same as ADAS Boxted which was the control.

These results showed an unsustainable breeding success and are the root cause of the ever lowering number of farmland birds. Our own survey now in the sixth year has shown a 11% drop in the number of breeding territories as counted by the BTO, despite being in CSS and latterly ELS. Without a concerted effort to control predation the agri-environmental schemes will not deliver on increasing farmland bird numbers, and as a farmer I have to ask why are the English farmers being modulated by 17% on there Single Farm Payment to help pay for schemes that are not delivering, whist others in the EU are only modulated by 5%.

Peter Wells:

I am guessing that the FWI editorial team felt that 'assertive questioning would not receive a reply from the RSPB and so it was either, make the questions nice and pleasant or have a blank space to fill with something else.

Peter,

Thanks for your feedback. I can understand your frustration, though in our defence we had to be selective in the questions we put as, combined with those that were e-mailed, we ended up with about 25 different issues to cover. Space retrictions meant we could only get about nine questions onto the page. We therefore decided to stick with those that related directly to the Farmland Bird Indicator - as requested in the original forum thread. Questions suchs as "are you going to help pay my mortgage if sea eagles steal my lambs", "what is the RSPB doing to reduce cat numbers" and "do they have a recipe book featuring pigeon", while all being interesting subjects, were not directly related to the FBI.

We will hopefully be returning to these and other issues - such as the need for a food security indicator rather than a farmland bird indicator, and the role of predator species - in a separate article next year.

Phil Clarke, FARMERS WEEKLY

phil clarke:

Anytime now DEFRA will be publishing its annual farmland bird indicator, looking at trends in bird numbers in the British countryside.

The indicator is expected to show certain key species under continuing pressure, with the finger pointed at modern agriculture.

Our friends at the RSPB have therefore offered to answer "the sort of hardball questions farmers ask" on these issues.

I've thought of one or two - such as "how do we know the indicator is accurate?" and "how can the RSPB justify buying up Grade 1 land in the fens to return to bird habitat at a time of global food shortage?" I'd also like to know how significant these findings are in terms of directing future policy in the countryside and what can farmers do to mitigate the effects.

But I'm sure FWi users can come up with more "hardball" questions than that. So, if you've got a burning question you want to put to the RSPB, now's your chance....

Phil Clarke FARMERS WEEKLY

phil clarke:

Anytime now DEFRA will be publishing its annual farmland bird indicator, looking at trends in bird numbers in the British countryside.

The indicator is expected to show certain key species under continuing pressure, with the finger pointed at modern agriculture.

Our friends at the RSPB have therefore offered to answer "the sort of hardball questions farmers ask" on these issues.

I've thought of one or two - such as "how do we know the indicator is accurate?" and "how can the RSPB justify buying up Grade 1 land in the fens to return to bird habitat at a time of global food shortage?" I'd also like to know how significant these findings are in terms of directing future policy in the countryside and what can farmers do to mitigate the effects.

But I'm sure FWi users can come up with more "hardball" questions than that. So, if you've got a burning question you want to put to the RSPB, now's your chance....

Phil Clarke FARMERS WEEKLY

As farmers we have had to endure countless newspaper headlines usually starting with Modern Agriculture to blame for the decline in farmland birds, and more often and not this emanates fom the RSPB headquarters in Sandy. The fact that farmland birds have declined by just over 40% compared with upland birds at 90% and woodland birds by over 70% does show agriculture in a better light. If the bird population in the British Isles is regarded as a national asset, those charged with looking after those assets have been just as poor at their job as those in the banking industry whose policies have led to the current recession in the UK's economy.

As a Suffolk farmer I have to ask this question to the RSPB.  In the early 1970's there were only four recorded pairs of Sparrowhawks in the Suffolk Bird Atlas which has risen to an estimated 800 pairs. This latter figure could be higher especially if juvenile birds which have not paired are put into the equation. Indeed a total of 2000 Sparrowhawks in the county could well be on the conservative side.  If one takes data from the definitive book on the Sparrowhawk by Newton, one sparrowhawk requires 3 small birds a day to sustain itself which is over 1000 per year.  Multiply that by the 2000 population of these hawks in Suffolk and we have a loss of 2 million small birds a year.  Even if you allow for the fact that the female sparrowhawk does take much bigger prey ie collared doves, woodpigeons etc there is still well over 1.25 million small bird requirement to feed this number of Sparrowhawks.

This is just the loss to one particular predator in one county, to put this across all the UK counties this predator would be responsible for the loss of over 60 million birds. I am not anti raptor but their numbers must be in balance with their prey species. The RSPB must wake up to the fact that the days when there was over 20,000 gamekeepers ( now less than 4000 ) and chemicals like DDT have long gone. The pendulum has swung from the small birds to the side of the predators and it needs to be in the middle, thus restoring a balance.

I would suggest a 100 pairs of fully protected sparrowhawks in Suffolk and not 800 pairs would be a good starting point, especially when you consider all the other predators both avian and mammalian which have increased very significantly over the past 40 years.

phil clarke:

Anytime now DEFRA will be publishing its annual farmland bird indicator, looking at trends in bird numbers in the British countryside.

The indicator is expected to show certain key species under continuing pressure, with the finger pointed at modern agriculture.

Our friends at the RSPB have therefore offered to answer "the sort of hardball questions farmers ask" on these issues.

I've thought of one or two - such as "how do we know the indicator is accurate?" and "how can the RSPB justify buying up Grade 1 land in the fens to return to bird habitat at a time of global food shortage?" I'd also like to know how significant these findings are in terms of directing future policy in the countryside and what can farmers do to mitigate the effects.

But I'm sure FWi users can come up with more "hardball" questions than that. So, if you've got a burning question you want to put to the RSPB, now's your chance....

Phil Clarke FARMERS WEEKLY

phil clarke:

Anytime now DEFRA will be publishing its annual farmland bird indicator, looking at trends in bird numbers in the British countryside.

The indicator is expected to show certain key species under continuing pressure, with the finger pointed at modern agriculture.

Our friends at the RSPB have therefore offered to answer "the sort of hardball questions farmers ask" on these issues.

I've thought of one or two - such as "how do we know the indicator is accurate?" and "how can the RSPB justify buying up Grade 1 land in the fens to return to bird habitat at a time of global food shortage?" I'd also like to know how significant these findings are in terms of directing future policy in the countryside and what can farmers do to mitigate the effects.

But I'm sure FWi users can come up with more "hardball" questions than that. So, if you've got a burning question you want to put to the RSPB, now's your chance....

Phil Clarke FARMERS WEEKLY

As farmers we have had to endure countless newspaper headlines usually starting with Modern Agriculture to blame for the decline in farmland birds, and more often and not this emanates fom the RSPB headquarters in Sandy. The fact that farmland birds have declined by just over 40% compared with upland birds at 90% and woodland birds by over 70% does show agriculture in a better light. If the bird population in the British Isles is regarded as a national asset, those charged with looking after those assets have been just as poor at their job as those in the banking industry whose policies have led to the current recession in the UK's economy.

As a Suffolk farmer I have to ask this question to the RSPB.  In the early 1970's there were only four recorded pairs of Sparrowhawks in the Suffolk Bird Atlas which has risen to an estimated 800 pairs. This latter figure could be higher especially if juvenile birds which have not paired are put into the equation. Indeed a total of 2000 Sparrowhawks in the county could well be on the conservative side.  If one takes data from the definitive book on the Sparrowhawk by Newton, one sparrowhawk requires 3 small birds a day to sustain itself which is over 1000 per year.  Multiply that by the 2000 population of these hawks in Suffolk and we have a loss of 2 million small birds a year.  Even if you allow for the fact that the female sparrowhawk does take much bigger prey ie collared doves, woodpigeons etc there is still well over 1.25 million small bird requirement to feed this number of Sparrowhawks.

This is just the loss to one particular predator in one county, to put this across all the UK counties this predator would be responsible for the loss of over 60 million birds. I am not anti raptor but their numbers must be in balance with their prey species. The RSPB must wake up to the fact that the days when there was over 20,000 gamekeepers ( now less than 4000 ) and chemicals like DDT have long gone. The pendulum has swung from the small birds to the side of the predators and it needs to be in the middle, thus restoring a balance.

I would suggest a 100 pairs of fully protected sparrowhawks in Suffolk and not 800 pairs would be a good starting point, especially when you consider all the other predators both avian and mammalian which have increased very significantly over the past 40 years.

Had the same problem. Check at www.bto.org/research/indicators/farmland.or go into bto site and put psa in search. I get very annoyed with the rspb for continually blaming us (farmers)