As farming folk, we must be the most prolific knife carriers in the country. Laws against carrying knives could affect us more than most.  I, for one, always carry a knife in my pocket and it is often with me when I go into town. I am sure many of you will be in the same position. Here, in Scotland I believe it is already illegal to carry a knife in a public place unless you have a good reason for doing so. I am not sure if visiting my Newsagent to puschase my Farmer's Weekly will go down as a good reason for carrying a knife!  Knife crime is more common (I think) among our younger urban citizans, so, I hope that the politicians make allowances for those who genuinely carry a knife; -farmers, farm workers, contractors, vets, etc.,etc..

           However, those who indiscriminately carry knives should be removed from the streets and imprisoned, especially when we see some of the weapons they carry in their clothing.

ALLYR,

         I think this problem has always been around it makes resurgencies every few years.When I was a young lad  I can remember my Piers and the News Media all were in anguish regarding Teddy Boys carrying Knives[in particular Flick Knives] and Bicycle Chains.Vigourus Policing was installed if I remember and after a period of time it all seemed to fizzle out.I am sure Drug use is making this outbreak even worse as well as soft options from Courts to the culprits instead of preventative Policeing.

You are joking aren't you? Someone had a petition on the No 10 website a few months back wanting to ban the sale of kitchen knives over 4 inches long unless for commercial kitchen purposes. Obviously it was proposed by someone who doesn't cook!

When it comes to reasons for carrying knives in urban public places, what do you do with a Sikh carrying a kirpan (which is always concealed) or a Wiccan carrying a boline and athame (which always have to be sheathed when in presence of non-Wiccans)?

What about a schoolkid carrying a compass as part of a maths set (we live rural but there have been a couple of cases of "compass" attacks at one of the local secondarys)?

This does seem to be a cultural thing, for example in rural parts of Finland you can see sheath knives worn openly. I had a Swiss Army knife confiscated at Heathrow going through security, "which could compromise the safety of the aircraft" (I had completely forgotten about it). I was told they would keep it in the secure area in the aircraft galley and I could retrieve it at the end of the flight. During the flight one of the cabin staff asked if I could identify the knife as they had several knives under lock and key including sheath knives etc. Arriving at Kampala the knife was "lost" by the cabin staff, the "secure bag " was found to have a hole in the bottom, apologies etc but I could claim off Gulf Air for a new one, which was a pain as we were off camping for a couple of weeks. After an hour with the airport security staff filling in forms in trplicate, no carbon paper, just write everything out three times, we left the airport to see gangs of small boys cutting the roadside verges with machetes .

Oh great.  A chance to jump on a favourite hobby-horse!

The present knife laws seem to be a prime example of how the current trend in law-making, with its overwhelming need to replace any law which relies on proof of intent with detailed prescription of what is and isn't permitted.  In the case of knives, moving from the simple premise that it was illegal to carry an offensive weapon in public, to an ever changing set of regulations as to what constitutes an illegal weapon, who can an d cannot buy knives, the exact characteristics of illegal knives etc. etc..

All this contributes to an ever more complex set of rules which the police now say, are confusing.  If the legal authorities find a law confusing, what hope is there for the would-be honest citizen?  http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/CrimeJusticeAndTheLaw/CrimePrevention/DG_078569 gives an overview of knife law in the UK. 

Of course the way the law is now written is designed to avoid the need to show in court any intent on the part of the suspect.  If it is illegal to carry or buy certain weapons, then the full force of the law can be applied even if there is no evidence of intent.  Jolly good too, you may think, but even under the old laws, it was the responsibility of the suspect to prove a valid reason for carrying the 'weapon', so what's new? 

Just another of those occasions where courts are allowed no discretion to apply justice.  Just like the new Animal Transport Regulations - doing anything really wrong? No, but you haven't got the right paperwork so that's a nice fine thanks!

When I was a lad, and my dad started a sentence with those words, I used to cringe and think "This is now, Dad, Get with it!", so I apologise in advance for what I am about to say, but when I was a lad, all my contemporaries carried knives a lot of the time.  My Dad always carried a pen knife in his trousers.  My Mum used to complain like mad because it would wear the pocket out in no time.  My most decorous maiden great aunt carried a folding knife in her handbag in case she was ever faced with eating fruit in a situation where a knife wasn't provided. Even in junior school you would have found a pen knife in most kid's pencil cases.

From the age of 9 or 10 all my friends in the Cubs, and later on Scouts, wore sheath knives on their belts when going to meetings and during school holidays.  I mean you never knew when you may need to cut out saplings and strip off bark to make a shelter or raft!  Now, as AllyR points out, being a member of probably the largest knife-carrying group in the country, most of the time on most days of the week I am carrying a knife.

There is another anti-social piece of law-making happening at the present time in Redrruth, Cornwall.  The police have imposed a 9pm curfew on under 16's in a particular area for the school holidays.  Judging by the headlines in the Sunday Times, a lot of parents would like permanent blanket curfews for teenagers.  How anyone can contemplate such infringements of civil liberties I do not understand, but these are yet more examples of the way things are going.  In an attempt to tackle problems created by a very tiny minority, the whole of the population is to be punished.

What kind of country is it which allows young people to get married at the age of 16 but will not allow them to buy a knife of any kind (including ordinary table cutlery) until they are 18?  I don't know the answer to that - but I'm feeling increasingly that it isn't my kind of country.

Jacobus:

I'm feeling increasingly that it isn't my kind of country.

I concur most heartily, and I have often wondered if I think this way because I am getting older and, as the clever people of Islington tell me, 'change is threatening.' 

On the other hand, I appear to retain my powers of reason, and am happy to discuss modern trends with modern people and, I quite often appear on the winning side of the debate. My arguments are often echo's of those of others on this site, and this suggests that FWI space is not altogether devoid of reason, ideas and vision but, we do not however, have power, and it is the exercise of power by the present governing elite, that is the root of much of the problem.

As Jacobus documents so well, this governing elite enact legislation, which attempts to turn us all into the model citizens of their notion of a model society. Unfortunately for them, like the Jewish elite of the New Testament times, they refuse to recognise that it is in the nature of people not to be made 'perfect by the law.'

This leads me to draw parallels between the Scribes and Pharisees of old, and the Law Makers and Politicians of today. I also wonder if the consequences of such practices, will bring the devastation on our society as was inflicted by the dominant powers of the time on the society of those 'well meaning' but misguided and stubborn people of that day.

Incidentally. I too carry my faithfull Opinel (3' blade) at all times and the other week I inadvertantly took it into Wembley Stadium when Bristol City took on Hull City. Bristol lost just as Brown will lose, until he starts working with the grain of human nature, and admits that humans are not made perfect by laws which attempt to prevent them doing evil.

Not on the subject of knife crime - but a guy who's got experience as a rural (and indeed an inner city) policeman has written an article for FW. Interesting stuff...

Jacobus:

in Redrruth, Cornwall.  The police have imposed a 9pm curfew on under 16's in a particular area for the school holidays. 

I'm glad I don't live there. Can you imagine my 10 yr old walking up the road after being dropped off from fencing at 8pm with a 3ft sword in her hand?

It appears my friends across the pond once again want to punish law abiding citizens by taking away a right in hopes taking away that right will correct something deeper.  If someone desires to do you bodily harm, they will find a way.  Evidently taking away the guns didn't cure societies ills.  Both of our countries have a problem with crime, but our leaders are just scratching the surface as to why and how to deal with it. 

For all the gun control laws, if someone is intent on killing me, I would just as soon they shoot me as use some other less advanced method of killing me, like hacking me with a knife. 

Hi, an interesting debate. Firstly, as a ex copper with a great deal of experience in dealing with knives on the streets of the UK I would like to pass on my thoughts.

It is legal to carry a folding pocket knife with a cutting edge of 3.5" or less. I think this sort of knife is something that would "do the job" for the things most farmers would need to use a knife in work for. There are other circumstances that the carrying of knives is also legal. For example if you are in the armed forces or filming etc etc.

However, carrying knifes for "self defence" as part of a "gang" or with criminal intent is not acceptable. I have seen numerous stabbed victims/murders to last a lifetime. It is not a good sight.

What is needed is strong leadership from within the Police, backed up by a powerful deterant from the courts. At the moment the Police are let down by the lack of willingness to send violent knife carrying jobs to prison. The youth on the street is laughing at the systems we have in place at the moment. The balance of power has swung too far to deal with this real and immediate threat to the UK. If you carry a knife on the streets with the intent to use it/threaten others with it you should fear the law. Untill MPs get to grips with this crime and many others, the lack of respect for others will continue.

What sort of a world is it when you look at others, and wonder if he/she is carrying a knife/weapon. Its time to get a grip of this ugly and cowardly crime.  

We have to be very careful with our paranoia, the governments likes it when we are paranoid it allows them to take more control of our lives and to take more of our freedoms away from us, the way parliament is going, we will lose more of our freedoms, soon everything will be banned.

It is tragic when someone is killed, but most of the knife crime, are in areas notorious for crime throughout the ages, East London is well known, the Krays in the 60s is an example.

But their seems to an increase in knife crime in our city and town centres since the smoking ban came into force. 

Yes, i understand with regards to the government taking control of our lives with various new laws etc. But, this wave of crime is now within the rural communities. Various market towns accross the UK have increased incidents of knife crime 

I ask the question.....is it ok for people to carry a knife or any other weapon on the streets of this country for criminal intent? No it's not ok, thats what i say. Having a few beers and enjoying life to the full.........now thats what a call freedom!!!

moorsman, you make lot of valid points which nobody could disagree with, but others that seem to follow the current media frenzy on 'knife crime'.

As far as I can make out there are no reliable statistics on 'knife crime' available, so to some degree we are all postulating in the dark.  Commentators are saying that it is really a problem of certain areas of London, and that the apparently exceptional numbers of young people dying of stab woulds is not reflected in other parts of the country.  In fact, what seems to be emerging is that it is not the numbers which are out of the ordinary, more the young ages involved.  I have seen reported that usually the most likely age group of either perpetrator or victim is 18 to 25.  Another 'fact' I have seen reported is that actually, whilst there are no real statistics on the use of knives in crimes against the person, it seems that the numbers of these types of crime are pretty well static.

The fact is that we don't know.  The fear of crimes of these types is magnified out of all proportion by the media frenzy that surrounds each incident.  Today we have even had Gorgon Brown saying he understands why people are afraid to leave their houses for fear of being knifed.  Well I can understand that - he must have plenty of enemies waiting for him to step out of Downing Street without his police escort, but is this really how the rest of the country feels.  I don't think so - any more than I believe that the majority of us scan our fellow citizens wondering which may be carrying a weapon.  We know for certain that the majority are not, and we don't lie sleepless at night worrying whether we'll get to work safely in the morning any more than we worry about getting struck by lightning.

It seems to me that there are two problems here.  One, which I think you exaggerate as "this real and immediate threat to the UK" is how to detect and punish those carrying knives.  Here I would agree that the kind of punishments meted out to young offenders leaves something to be desired, but those calling for mandatory minimum custodial sentences are living in cloud cuckoo land - there are no custodial places to put them!  I don't pretend to know what the answer is, but parading all those caught in possession through the A&E wards to see if they can find a willing victim of a serious wounding to be disgusted by may be logistically impossible.

The second problem is the gang culture and machismo attached to sporting an illegal weapon on the street.  The media coverage of every new stabbing and every new law or twist of the maximum penalties only serves to enhance the street cred of those involved.  As someone else has pointed out, this is hardly a new phenomenon.  The flick knife wielding Teddy Boy, the gang warfare of mods and rockers and so on are well within our living memory.  Being a Brummie, our own claim to fame in this regard were the Peaky Blinders of the late Victorian era.  All these things gained notoriety, were fanned by the oxygen of publicity to the exaggerated concerns of the older generations - until the fashion moved on.

There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that is an echo of Peter Wells's comments.  Making a new law will have no effect whatsoever.