Cookies & Privacy
in

Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

Last post Tue, May 15 2012 8:26 by BrownCow. 34 replies.
Page 1 of 2 (35 items) 1 2   Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • Thu, May 10 2012 17:13

    • miss t
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 2 2008
    • Trusted Users

    Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    Livestock showing- is it something we should be encouraging? Is it right to be using animals for human benefit? And do we run the risk of going down the same route as Crufts?

    It’s a topic that the BVA are discussing at a welfare conference next week. They are discussing Using and abusing animals for human benefit: Must the show go on?-livestock shows.

    What are your thoughts?

    Is livestock showing bad for animal welfare?

     

    • Yes (20%)
    • No (80%)
    You voted for 'No '.
    • Total Votes: 30
  • Thu, May 10 2012 19:11 In reply to

    • topdog
    • Not Ranked
      Male
    • Joined on Sat, Jul 24 2010
    • Lancaster

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    Now that's a thought provoking question, one that I cant make up my mind on! Really cant decide either way with the way you have put it as I HATE crufts and the KC with a passion and wouldn't want any other species to go down the route they took dogs down.
    "There is no good flock without a good shepherd and no good shepherd without a good dog"
  • Thu, May 10 2012 20:08 In reply to

    • Gulli
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Sep 7 2010

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

     it depends on what you mean by human benefit, I would say all livestock farming uses animals to benefit humans. Showing is a pointless exercise in my eyes, doesn't make a difference how pretty the animal looks to me. if it cant perform then its worthless. but i wouldnt say that showing is particularly bad on animal welfare grounds

  • Thu, May 10 2012 20:32 In reply to

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

     

    Gulli:
    Showing is a pointless exercise in my eyes, doesn't make a difference how pretty the animal looks to me. if it cant perform then its worthless. but i wouldnt say that showing is particularly bad on animal welfare grounds
     

    I agree. I also think that showing has spoilt many breeds, Welsh Black Cattle for example. Too much attention is given to breeding stock suitable for the show ring. These animals are next to useless in a commercial setting. This is why most commercial farms run crossbred herds and flocks.

    http://www.holidaycambriancoast.co.uk/

  • Thu, May 10 2012 21:07 In reply to

    • henarar
    • Top 50 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Thu, Feb 21 2008
    • zumerzet

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

     Have livestock shows had there day, I hope not

    There are plenty of crossbred cattle at shows

    Is a show sale the place to buy cattle?

    I dont no much about sheep but most suckler farms I no do run crossbred cows with a ped bull

    At a show may well be as close as jo public come to farm animals so if they see them looking good it cant do any harm

  • Thu, May 10 2012 21:47 In reply to

    • BrownCow
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Oct 4 2010
    • South Wales

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    welshnwilling:
    This is why most commercial farms run crossbred herds and flocks.

    So where do you get the first cross or the terminal sire?  Without showing it would be difficult for pedigree breeders to begin to establish a client base.  Winning is great but just being in the ring and having a banner on the box is enough to let people know that you might have what they want. 

    What about those classes where EBVs play a part in the point scoring?  What really gets me is when you have animals in the show ring that have poor locomotion or something equally fundamental wrong with them and then the judge puts them over a perfectly formed animal from a lesser known breeder.  It confuses everyone! 

    welshnwilling:
    Welsh Black Cattle for example

    I thought the 10% extra maintenance on Tir Gofal was the problem. 

     

    welshnwilling:
    These animals are next to useless in a commercial setting

    Are you being deliberately provocative?  I can supply evidence to the contrary if required.

    Do as you would be done by.
  • Thu, May 10 2012 22:20 In reply to

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    BrownCow:

    welshnwilling:
    This is why most commercial farms run crossbred herds and flocks.

    So where do you get the first cross or the terminal sire?

    True, but what I was getting at is the breeders who breed a certain type of animal just for showing. When put on a working farm they just melt away.

    Breeders should breed stock for selling not for showing. Going to a society sale should be a good enough shop window and if someone was happy with their purchase they may well go back to the same breeder for some more.

    BrownCow:

    welshnwilling:
    Welsh Black Cattle for example

    I thought the 10% extra maintenance on Tir Gofal was the problem. 

    No that just put the prices through the roof. The breed had been spoilt long before that. Don't get me wrong, there are a few excellent commercial WB herds about but these cattle are very different from what you will see at the shows IMHO.

    BrownCow:

     

    welshnwilling:
    These animals are next to useless in a commercial setting

    Are you being deliberately provocative?

    Might have been a bit tongue in cheek. Big Smile

    http://www.holidaycambriancoast.co.uk/

  • Thu, May 10 2012 23:44 In reply to

    • Gulli
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Sep 7 2010

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    BrownCow:

    What about those classes where EBVs play a part in the point scoring?   

     

    why dont they just judge on ebvs? why does it matter what the bull looks like?

     

  • Fri, May 11 2012 6:26 In reply to

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

     

    Gulli:
    why dont they just judge on ebvs? why does it matter what the bull looks like?

     

    I don't take much notice of EBV's to be honest. In my experience high index sires often throw offspring that grow very big, very fast and are difficult to finish. I much prefer to buy from a reputable breeder that has a good herd / flock.

    http://www.holidaycambriancoast.co.uk/

  • Fri, May 11 2012 8:05 In reply to

    • henarar
    • Top 50 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Thu, Feb 21 2008
    • zumerzet

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

     

    Gulli:
    why dont they just judge on ebvs? why does it matter what the bull looks like

    EBVs thats a laugh and only to be used as a rough guide how do twins end up with different EBVs before they work?

    And how do you no if you buy from EBVs that the animal has the right ones as they are only got from what the sire and dam is.

     and with DNA testing it has been shown that this is wrong more times than most would like to say, This needs sorting out IMHO

    So if you buy from EBVs on there own you may well end up with a crap looking animal that is just that "crap"

  • Fri, May 11 2012 8:11 In reply to

    • henarar
    • Top 50 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Thu, Feb 21 2008
    • zumerzet

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    welshnwilling:
    In my experience high index sires often throw offspring that grow very big, very fast and are difficult to finish.

    High index in what way? all depends what you are looking for

  • Fri, May 11 2012 8:22 In reply to

    • henarar
    • Top 50 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Thu, Feb 21 2008
    • zumerzet

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    welshnwilling:
    Going to a society sale should be a good enough shop window

    Young animals will be more got up for that than a show take them home and see them fade away

    Go on farm and buy see how they are fed and how much if you can,look at the rest of the herd and the state of the place

    IMO breeding animals dont need much grub and will be better and last longer if they grow a bit slower

  • Fri, May 11 2012 8:29 In reply to

    • cymro
    • Top 500 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 25 2007
    • cymru,gwlad y gwlan

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    in my opinion the bigger an animal grows the harder it is to finish,

    charolais cattle and texel sheep have been going bigger, but they are breeding smaller stockier types now which are easier to finish.

    livestock animals that are shown in shows around the country  probably get pamperd more than people and get a very cosy life.

  • Fri, May 11 2012 8:44 In reply to

    • BrownCow
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Oct 4 2010
    • South Wales

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    cymro:

    livestock animals that are shown in shows around the country  probably get pamperd more than people and get a very cosy life.

    My children would agree with you Big Smile
    Do as you would be done by.
  • Fri, May 11 2012 8:57 In reply to

    • henarar
    • Top 50 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Thu, Feb 21 2008
    • zumerzet

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    welshnwilling:
    I much prefer to buy from a reputable breeder that has a good herd / flock

    I would go with that but how do you no that the young chap down the road has not got a better animal for sale a half the price but no one knows him

    To fix this problem perhaps he better take them to a show

     

  • Fri, May 11 2012 9:40 In reply to

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    i think livestock showing is done more as a hobbie than anything else. at our local show we know whose going to win before we enter but we still do it as a bit of fun


    my girls
  • Fri, May 11 2012 12:58 In reply to

    • townie
    • Top 150 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Sun, May 22 2005
    • West Wales

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    We were enthusiastic about showing in the first few years.  We discovered too many prizes went to the same small cadre of people, regardless of the quality of their entries.  It became obvious that animals were being bred to a show standard rather than fitmess for their job or the health of the individuals or the breed as a whole.  I've now seen this from sheep and goats to camelids and dogs as well as discussions with a friend who breeds pedigree cats.  A turning point for me was when a guest judge from overseas completely upended the applecart at one show by handing out gongs based on commercial suitability rather than who he knew.  Now I might go to sales to look around or to an ag show for the machinery but not to show any animals.

     

  • Fri, May 11 2012 13:23 In reply to

    • BrownCow
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Oct 4 2010
    • South Wales

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    townie:
    We discovered too many prizes went to the same small cadre of people, regardless of the quality of their entries.

    I agree this happens with some judges but I would never buy an animal based on the rosettes it had won.  However,  if I saw something I liked I would know where to get something similar. 

    Those of us outside the ring should be judging the judge as much as the animals.  If you don't agree with the judge don't go and buy his/her cattle.  How about stony silence if we disagree and raucous cheering if we think they have got it right?  It would liven up monday morning at the RWASWink

    They have an EBV class there on the Wednesday I think but the entries are a bit low.

    Do as you would be done by.
  • Fri, May 11 2012 18:19 In reply to

    • Gulli
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Sep 7 2010

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    henarar:

    EBVs thats a laugh and only to be used as a rough guide how do twins end up with different EBVs before they work?

    And how do you no if you buy from EBVs that the animal has the right ones as they are only got from what the sire and dam is.

     and with DNA testing it has been shown that this is wrong more times than most would like to say, This needs sorting out IMHO

    So if you buy from EBVs on there own you may well end up with a crap looking animal that is just that "crap"

     

    no one buys dairy bull semen based on what the bull looks like, why should a beef herd be any different?

    and even if you completely ignore ebvs and go and buy the best looking bull you can find, you might well end up with a very expensive, very pretty bull whos calves you cant get out alive, its not all about growth rates

     

  • Fri, May 11 2012 20:00 In reply to

    • henarar
    • Top 50 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Thu, Feb 21 2008
    • zumerzet

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    Farmers weekly 5th august 2011 page 34

    I never said it was all about growth rates note what I asked wnw and I never said you should ignore ebvs.just dont read to much into them as you may not be looking at the right ones and they are only estamated anyway

    And how do they get the ebv anyway?

    Why are there so many four week old calves that are two months old

    How do twins have different ebvs before they are worked

    Now what day did I weigh that animal yesterday or three weeks ago

     

  • Fri, May 11 2012 23:36 In reply to

    • Gulli
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Sep 7 2010

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

     well that was just an example, my point was that its harder to pick a good bull on looks than it is on figures, yeah breeders can fudge the figures to make bulls look better on paper, but if more farmers bought into ebvs then those breeders wouldnt last very long.

    the dairy industry has made massive genetic improvements by using figures whereas a lot of the beef industry seems set against it.

    I would rather pick a bull purely on figures than purely on looks.

  • Sat, May 12 2012 7:26 In reply to

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    Gulli:
    I would rather pick a bull purely on figures than purely on looks.

    We bought a very nice BB bull which also happened to have exellent EBV's. He sired the best calves we've ever had. However, we wouldn't have even considered buying him on figures alone and certainly wouldn't buy a poor looking bull just because it had good figures.

    Far too many pedigree breeders fiddle the system IMHO. Lot's of bull calves not registered until they're 3 mths old and not sired by the bull that they claim they are etc etc

    Apologies to those breeders who are genuine by the way.

    http://www.holidaycambriancoast.co.uk/

  • Sat, May 12 2012 7:46 In reply to

    • henarar
    • Top 50 Contributor
      Male
    • Joined on Thu, Feb 21 2008
    • zumerzet

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    welshnwilling:

    Far too many pedigree breeders fiddle the system IMHO. Lot's of bull calves not registered until they're 3 mths old and not sired by the bull that they claim they are etc etc

    Thank you my point exactly but for calves that are older than they should be I dont think its just the pedigree boys that do it just go to market and watch the calves sold or better still have a look in the stirk ring at the odd 4 month old with 6 inch horns

    welshnwilling:
    not sired by the bull that they claim

    This is the worst one IMHO perhaps comp dna testing for all pedigree`s,That may go down well at the next club meetWink

  • Sat, May 12 2012 17:45 In reply to

    • BrownCow
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Oct 4 2010
    • South Wales

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    Henarar, you are such a cynic,

    henarar:
    stirk ring at the odd 4 month old with 6 inch horns
      Maybe they forgot to BCMS register on time?

    EBVs have their place as long as you check the accuracy of the figures.  Also be aware that  previously unrecorded cattle come in well below average and it takes a while to bring them up how ever good they are so don't write off good looking cattle with low accuracy EBVs  but do pass by good lookers with Low EBVs (unless it Gest Length or BWT) that have high accuracy.

    I don't think it is as easy to fiddle the EBVs as you think.  They are comparative within your own herd and it helps if you us more than one bull.  If you want an animal to stand out then you could make it a couple of months younger than the rest but then the 200 day weights would be fantastic but the 400 and 600 not so.  At some point it is going to get weighed in the market or if you are recording EMA and IMF then by the registered scanner.  Pedigree breeders watch each other like hawks.  I've been to an open day and half the visitors were noting tag numbers in their smart phones and checking details on the herd database!

    DNA testing is already compulsory for a lot of pedigree breeders especially for bulls.  Herefords do it and the penalties for mistakes are suitably harsh. 

    Do as you would be done by.
  • Sat, May 12 2012 20:17 In reply to

    • topdog
    • Not Ranked
      Male
    • Joined on Sat, Jul 24 2010
    • Lancaster

    Re: Livestock showing- has it had it's day?

    I was at Carlisle Charolais sale today and watched the EBV rating compared to the value with interest and it seemed strange. Some with very poor figures for calving ease made VERY good money. Admittedly they had mostly got very good figured for the 200, 400 and 600 day weights but if you struggle to get a calf out easily in the first place then you must be on a downer from the start?
    I was looking for EBV details online and found this info
    Anyone under the illusion that he can beat the system and fool the process is wrong. He may get away with it for one or two calf crops but the cattle will fail to live up to their expectations with their EBVs deteriorating rapidly when they go into production. The biggest victim in this fraud is the person recording the data as he is fooling himself and destroying his reputation. Breed societies need to act aggressively in any cases detected to protect their members and the integrity of the breed.
    the full article is here... http://www.thecattlesite.com/articles/2641/what-is-an-ebv-and-how-can-it-help-you
    "There is no good flock without a good shepherd and no good shepherd without a good dog"
Page 1 of 2 (35 items) 1 2   Next >
© RBI 2001-2010
Powered by Community Server (Commercial Edition), by Telligent Systems