Hello all. Apologies for this, but I need your help.

It doesn't take a genius to notice the increasing complexity in tractors these days. As an engineer, what I'd like to know is whether all the added complexity is actually providing value for money in the long term?

It seems that as the big manufacturers move further into fighter-plane technology there is a gap opening up which the Japanese and Chinese manufacturers are now filling. The gap I refer to is the standard, simple workhorse tractor which is capable of providing most farmers with a tool they can utterley depend upon for many years. So, I am going to ask a few questions of you all. Yes, this is early market testing for a commercial proposal....

1. HP of current tractors?
2. Bought a new tractor in the last 5 years?
If so, happy with it?
If not happy with it, why?
3. Thinking of buying a new tractor?
If so, what HP?
4. If you were buying a new tractor, would you prefer to buy a tractor from a British company, made from parts made in Britain?
5. What's the best thing about your tractor?
6. What's the worst thing?

If you want to really help, you can email your answers to me at tractor.survey@googlemail.com

Thanks very much.

1.  8 tractors between 50-325hp

2   no and never will .

3   Upgrading yes but not new Maybe another TW15 or 25 or a magnum (spraying tractor)

4 Yes or american/canadian

5  Low tech ,as little electricals and computers

6 too many hours .

 

All farm equipment is getting too complicated, and too expensive. For me, the best tractors built were in the period between 1980 and about 1992.  The CaseIH Magnum stands out for me as a comfortable tractor to operate, with plenty of power, and enough electronics.  There are alot of things today being put on tractors and combines that are great when they work,but cause more trouble than they are worth when they don't work. 

Im 15. i might find it easyer than you old boys to operate this stuff because its known the younger generation are genrally  more up to date with computer etc. while the elders dont really bother. i think things like headland managment are really good eg. ploughing. press a button. lowers the rev it lifts the plough. turns it then when you let go of the button it drops the plough bring the revs back up and of you go again. all you have to do is push the button and steer. but i have to say. i couldnt drive a fendt when i first go init. even though pushing a joystick is more simple than presing the clutch putting it in gear let the clutch out at the rite pase while giving the tractor some revs. i think everything is easy. once you know how. i think manufactures should take a page out of valtra's book. in each serise giving a classic, advanced, and hightech version. so if you just want basic leavers to lift your mower and open your slurry door on your spreader. have that. if you want i bit more with a fawards/backwards shuttle and powershifts etc go for advance. but then if you want to be able to program manuvers etc in and be able to lift you mower by turning a dial and opening your slurry door at the tap of a joy stick etc. then go for that. i think if you want a technicall trators you can have one. but at the sam etime. if you dont. there will always be, like valtra, companies that wil be offering less complicated machines.

reply :)

sam

i agree with sam and am like wise of the younger generation (17) so find the electrical side of the tractor cab quite easy, how ever i still believe there is a market for the more simple tractor.  i speak to many people at young farmers and at work who feel the same, and i can only see it gettin more technical and more operations at the touch of one button.  in answer to the questions....

1.  7 tractors ranging from 90 - 300hp
2.  5 tractors bought in the last 5 years, some ahve been problematic, but only minor niggly bits
3.  not for a while,new forager is on the list
4.  british definitely for ease of getting parts
5.  massey ferguson 6290: - pleanty of grip, pulls like a train, simple electronics
6.  could have done with cab suspension

Luke

Sorry maybe should have given more detail?

I'm 31 , An ex british potato grower now farming in canada .

Had plenty of new high tech tractors but now i have no need for it ,Just lots of hp and reliable and Air con is a must here.I had a re think and maybe a TM120 classic (manual) could be interesting as a sprayer tractor.

This "old boy" objects more the the price of the complex tractors and the problems that arise when they need repair.  So far I have not found a feature I could not use, although I buy all my tractors used so I may not be that up to date.  I found a website of the Scottish governments that listed the yearly subsidies of farmers individually.  From what I see and hear in your media, your subsidies will probably not be as large in the future.  You are competing in a world where unfortunately you are high cost producers.  One place to cut costs is equipment.  That is the issue for me when it comes to the complexity of farm equipment, cost. 

This "old boy" objects more the the price of the complex tractors and the problems that arise when they need repair.  So far I have not found a feature I could not use, although I buy all my tractors used so I may not be that up to date.  I found a website of the Scottish governments that listed the yearly subsidies of farmers individually.  From what I see and hear in your media, your subsidies will probably not be as large in the future.  You are competing in a world where unfortunately you are high cost producers.  One place to cut costs is equipment.  That is the issue for me when it comes to the complexity of farm equipment, cost. 

Kansas, could not agree with you more on several comments like the best era for tractors. I think the younger generation will find out the truth when they pay the repair bills! I am farming in Transylvania where we get pretty low subsidies compared to the old EU and one thing that comes across very clearly is 'keep it simple stupid' with respect to machinery. We also have to work with some pretty rough terrain that has been neglected for the last 10-20 years (the land and the roads!). We are finding that the full-chassis tractors are the way to go (JD although looked at McCormick) and used (say mid-1990s although the 3650 is a little older). If we did buy new here it would still be a major problem with servicing as we are about 150 miles from the nearest dealer. The Romanian importers also think we should pay full list price (25% discount would be normal elsewhere) and their service is appalling. Hence, we actually import everything direct from Austria, Italy, Germany or Holland - quite an activity - we are now even the importers for some pretty good kit. With the equipment we are finding that we are avoiding 3-point linkage tools and going for solid and used rather than cheaper, new brands (hence, Vicon, Lely, Welger are on the farm). It is also interesting working in a 'Continental' climate as I am looking more at Canada for ideas - we make hay rather than silage and I expect we have items that are more common to the USA/Canada like large V-rakes on the go. Stuart

Hi Bluepaint,

How long have you been in Canada? I should imagine its vastly different than back home. I should think that spuds are of the rotation. We grow spuds here in the West Country. No need for irrigation yet as there is plenty of moisture!!!!.

Ref the complex tractors we use a variety JCB, TM and some datatronic MF's, they are reasonably painless (a few probs with JCB) and usually operator friendly, had a look in a contractors vario the other day and it looked like the space shuttle I think you would need to be well up to speed to get the best from a machine like that. Thinking tractors are ok but when it breaks in the dark on a sunday (they always do) you want to be able to fix it and crack on and not have to wait for the man with the laptop to reset the wotsit!! Air ccon is a must any where.

Big Vern

With regard to the 'over-complex tractors' arguement, many manufacturers offer or have offered a manual tractor, three tome to mind for me, these being landini (could have a techno or top spec) valtra (classic, advance or hitech) New Holland (standard or Classic) when these tractors were offered everyone babbled about how the market place really needed them, i was one of these people, especially when the NH TM140 was offered in classic spec, i thought great - an idiot spec tractor just what i wanted.

ordered a demo, but a classic spec wasn't available, so the dealer sent me a normal spec TM140, which i had for 3 days, i ordered the classic spec off the back of this, in the meantine i was at a dealer up country who had a TM125 classic and had a go in that, and the tractor was not nearly as good as i remembered, before anyone says anything i know it was 15 gi-gi's short of power and was the older NH rather than the CNH style one we have now, however they are very similar bar a few bits of trim.

I was so disappointed i spent the drive home thinking had i done the wrong thing, and i realised sub conciously that i liked the TM140RC for a couple of things - AC, the powershift change on the move - great for heavy hauling like tanker work, all round suspension and an air seat, things not termed as classic spec, so my whole previous arguement was completely pointless!!! what a fool i felt, so my order was changed and i got my TM, has been very reliable and i'm chuffed with all my toys.

The truth is, even though the manufacturers offer low spec tractors, in general it seems nobody buys them!! modern tractors don't give the trouble that you'd expect and with companies like David King Electrics around and computer that fails can be reconditioned fairly cheaply.

1. 85-180
2. yes, has been all i needed
3. yes, 150hp lightweight tractor (valtra M150?)
4. not fussed, less and less is produced here
5. having it when i needed it

6. paying for the bloody thing!

 

1. 20-500+  (New 6m plus, one pass stuff, wants more than 500hp in some cases)
2. Yes. And happy with it.
3. Thinking of buying a new tractor? Yes. Probably JD7530 premium (180hp) But maybe JCB2170 for the road speed. And high-tech - The more the tractor can do on its own, the more I can answer the phone and get other things sorted, and the quicker and more efficiently I can do the job and hide my own inadaquacies (like a touch of colour blindness when harrowing, and an inability to get a plough to run in a streight line!). 
4. If you were buying a new tractor, would you prefer to buy a tractor from a British company, made from parts made in Britain?  Definately. But....  Usual qualifications of quality, personal taste, price, delivery and back-up all come into the equation. Would you buy an Austin Allegro? Also wouldn't buy Chinese at the moment, they remind me of Zetor. US or maybe German built would figure highly in the competition.
5. What's the best thing about your tractor? I haven't paid for it yet.
6. What's the worst thing? Facing that fact (Item 5) in the future.

Stuart:  I am curious as to what led you to Transylvania to begin with.  Must be quite an adventure, I hear the old Soviet bloc countries are still a mess.  

We do put up more hay than silage, and here grass silage is unheard of, most all is corn or sorghum, but a little small grain and alfalfa silage as well.  Back to the complex equipment, what twists me off as much as anything is half the time the dealer can't fix it either, without just doing trial and error.  I have a 4wd pickup with a NEW transmission in it that won't shift, the computer has been replaced twice, it has been in the shop for 6 weeks now.  The period I mentioned was the best for good simple yet comfortable farm equipment as far as I am concerned, althought I think the newer planters, especially the no-till ones today are some improved, as are most hay balers.  With regard to the younger generation and bill paying, it is amazing how quickly you adapt to using older equipment once you are paying the bills rather than dad or granddad.  I get more and more like my dad everyday with regard to keeping things running as cheaply as possible.

Hey MacMatravers1

My family been farming in manitoba for 10 years,

We don't grow spuds any more , Sunflowers , Soy beans , Canola (rape) , Oats and some alfalfa  for seed producttion .

Don't get we wrong we had many " high tech " tractors and were happy with them TM's , 6920's ,MF 3000's , Jcb 1135 and the old ford 7840 sle turbo was probably my favourites.But equally as many bad ones , Valtra T160, Fendt 716 ,Renault ares and the problems with these were all electrically or computer related so why pay more for a headace , i still run Ford 7810, Ford 7600, MF 390 , Ford TW20 along-side the new ones and they ARE more reliable and are cheaper to fix ( You can do it yourself).

But it's different here All you need is hp , 40-50 ft machines on "pool table" flat land you dont even need powershift which is wher this "american" type of tractor (Steiger ,Versatile come in to their own , Every thing is replaceable and you can shop around for parts because they're all basically Cummins , Cat ,Eaton ,Clark components available from tractor or truck dealers .

Kansas, I was working as a consultant for the EU back in 1997. An adventure yes. We live almost in the exact centre of what since 1920 has been Romania (pre-1920 it was Austro-Hungarian and Eastern Hungary). Transylvania is actually an old principality surrounded by the southern Carpathians. It is an amazing location in that I am working in three locations, a small town that was part of a German colony from the C12th, it is now Hungarian/Romanian, a village that was German and in the last 50 years has become Romanian/Roma (the Russians took most of the Germans to Siberia for 7 years after WW2 and few came back - destroyed a unique culture) and a village that is Hungarian. The climate is great as we are on a latitude with southern Italy and at 2,000 feet and surrounded by mountains. The temperature range is minus 30C to plus 30C and the rainfall about 24 inches, mainly in winter and spring. We normally get long summers from July with storms to keep the place green. I believe we are the most forested lowland location in Europe and as the area has not been intensively farmed after the German population was lost and before that it was very traditional, we are leftwith Europes last great tracts of natural pastures and flower-rich hay meadows.

As to the Soviet bloc being a mess, I think Romania heads the list. It has a population of 20 million, is feeding half and importing every decent product on the shelves. It has an abaundant agricutural resource that should feed 100 million. Before 1989 it was all working. The trick was to give the land back to the people! Most land parcels are in half-acre to one acre sizes and as they were given back to people with an averageage of about 60 nearly 20 years ago, many owners are deceased and the land parcels are owned by children, cousins, etc. etc. It is incredibly difficult to bring land together and consolidation takes a long while - we rent first and buy as we go. This issue has made investment slow and difficult and means that in an area like ours farmers are scarce and hence all the normal back-up. We are extremely independent and provide all our own services and back-up. It is a dairy area traditionally but there was no transition from a pre-WW2 village subsistance situation to farmsteads. Instead we got the communist-style farm buildings and they are now nearly all derelict. Virtually othing has replaced them and the cows went back to the old pre-WW2 system of ones and twos. We have the highest fresh milk prices in Europe and still processors cannot get milk as the villagers only produce for themselves and then expect the processor  to buy the spring surplus. We have just gone through the start of EU milk quotas and the government has allocated it all to these one-two cow herds, most of which do not sell commercially and are unable to meet minimum hygiene regulations - net result is that the quota ownership has been fragmented like the land and many new investments have no quota and no right to buy the land. Hence, yes a very large mess, although Romania has managed to mis-manage its way to a mess that is probably worse than the rest.

Stuart:  Is there any resentment of the locals toward you, I would imagine at least a  few aren't happy about a foreigner, or do most of them just not care to farm?  How about crime?  At one time I heard some really shocking crime rates in Russia.  How is the basic infrastructure, like health care, police, fire, electricity?  How is this financed if you don't mind my asking, a UK bank, Romanian Bank, investors, or none needed?

Kansas,

Resentment, not really, the common local trait is to resent anyone who tries to do something foreign or local! Petty jealousy is a problem. We lost the local German population so all are incomers to an extent. If anyone resents us it is the 'local barons' who tried to grab the land from the locals post 1990. If anything the average person probably appreciates our presence as we do stand up for ourselves. Also few locals want to farm, they perceive themselves as sophisticated urbanites. Agriculture is seen as something done by impoverished peasants.

Crime is petty if you ignore the corruption that pervades the system. I describe the country as a bureaucracy not a democracy and hence there are plenty of opportunities for stoppages to occur in the system that need to be unplugged! We have a no bribes / no black money policy and that does make our life difficult. Generally life is very safe, the greatest danger is from the incredibly bad standard of local driving. It is not just badit is horrendous. They all fancy themselves as race car drivers which makes it worse.

Health care is suffering as so many professionals leave for better salaries in the west. Also the country has a massive black sector and that means tax evasion is rife. No taxes - no public services. They struggle with the concept and think that the State is somebody else who can provide for them without taxes! Police are generally okay - I generally try to follow the traffic laws! Got stopped by the police last week, head of the local traffic police, wanted to know if I wanted to by some stock! Generally on good terms with them and most farm in a small way - we find oursleves doing the odd acre of ploughing on request!

It is all private finance. The country is the size of the UK with probably double the agricultural potential but we have no agricultural banking sector. They are more interested in house and consumer lending. I do not think that there is an agricultural banking specialist in the country. I have banked with the same bank for about three years now and know the director well. Finally got him to finance a tractor last week, probably the first such loan his bank has done and I think they are number six in the country. Romania does not seem to understand that it is first an agrarian country and its primary industry is not going to get moving until it doessomething about financing the sector. Alas that is a long way off. In the meantime we will remain one of the few as raising private finance alone takes a long while.

To be honest, management here is incredibly difficult. We stay because someone has to start giving a lead to others. It also just happens to be one of the most beautiful and unspoilt places in Europe.

blue paint, you say your family have been farming in manitouba or years, you wouldnt know any farmers in that state with the secound name of harrison.. there my cousins

thanks.

Sam

SAM

Sorry don't ring a bell .

It's amazing we came her 10 years ago and since then i've seen 8-9 European farmers  ( mostly swiss/dutch )come to our area alone ( within 20 miles ) and half of them gone again? , Just go a little west,south-west and you will meet several british farmers evey day mostly scottish and irish , i went to a farm sale last week and there was 12 british there.

They must be marketing this place pretty good over there ?                                                             

Fantastic country , No regrets at all.

Yeh we know 3 or 4 people that have gone to farm in varios parts of canada. Im not sure if i would take it up but i will definatly be going out to stay with tthe cousins next year

Sam

Find out where they are , Where you will be going  , I might know it

ok. ill find out. i know they do a bit of contracting. do a fair silage operation. all i know is its in manituba. ill find out anyway. the guys called david harrison.

Sam

Hey sam ,     Done a little research and there is a british  custom silaging outfit  called harrison  running about 40 miles south of us , Running claas choppers " must be british "

yeah sounds like them.

is it more cat combines in canada then bluepaint ?

and whats the most popular forager over there then ?

 

 

Conrad, you have gone very quiet sincestarting this thread?! You are not involved in the British buy-out of Universal Tractors in Brasov, Romania are you? Probably notas I suspect that it is just a large real estate speculation. Stuart