I'm in Manchester at the moment for the Labour Party conference and I've just spent the last few hours following DEFRA secretary Hilary Benn to various fringe meetings and Q&A sessions.

It felt like he said a lot in all that time, but now I'm writing my notes back I've realised there wasn't a great deal of substance to what he said - I'm tempted to say he was being a typical politician but I'm trying not to be cynical...

He did give a ringing endorsement of Gordon Brown though - I suppose that means he hasn't got his eye on the top job

Crikey, Caroline, who did you have to upset to get that assignment?

From what I can see, the day Mr Benn has anything useful to impart to the agricultrure industry will be along time coming.  Him 'telling' farmers to be carefull importing livestock from areas on the continent where BT is rife may count as news amongst the Labour apparatchiks but is hardly going to enhance his standing with farmers.  If he were to give carte blanche for lynch mobs to deal with the first person to import BTV1 - well that would be news!

caroline stocks:

He did give a ringing endorsement of Gordon Brown though - I suppose that means he hasn't got his eye on the top job

Caroline,

          Have you not read postings on here before the man is a Fraud . One of Societies cast offs. His father was a Fraud that ruined a generation of Aircraft companies with his vision of Nationalisation and building Concord .They should be shot for Industrial Treason.

The sad thing is,the tories dont seem to have anything better to offer.Westminster cares not a fig for primary production and manufacturing.They still think the UK can thrive on shuffling worthless paper about,and delivering pizzas to one another.I'm glad the Scottish government is a bit more switched on.

re burocrat basher.

There you go again !   I was about to write a posting and then I read yours and realised that you had written,almost verbatim, the very posting I had been formulating in my mind {though not yet written on the computer}. It is quite scary to find someone writing the same type of right wing stuff that I would also write, usually I am in a minority of one. But to get back to that Benn fellow, it is impossible for him to be supportive and helpful to primary capitalists and entrepreneurs like farmers, having grown up with a background of extreme socialism and anticapitailsm and it shows.

Dick

connached:

The sad thing is,the tories dont seem to have anything better to offer.Westminster cares not a fig for primary production and manufacturing.They still think the UK can thrive on shuffling worthless paper about,and delivering pizzas to one another.I'm glad the Scottish government is a bit more switched on.

There's very little between the parties when it comes to policy. The Tories do seem to have more of an inherent understanding of the countryside - but they aren't going to spend lots of cash on a section of the electorate that they can depend on regardless.

Dick,

      Sorry I did not mean to steal your Thunder,I speak as I see and there seem to be plenty of Folks who think the same as us. Unfortunately things usually have to get bad before common sense prevails and I therefore think we are in for a bad time and a hell of a lot of Money will be wasted and or lost by and due to these Idiots.

It seems from Caroline's latest dispatch from the Labour conference front line that Mr Benn has something new to say.  He now seems to think that UK farmers have a part to play in growing food.  It has taken him a year in the DEFRA hot seat to come up with this astounding revelation because, honestly, nobody of average intelligence could have been expected to make the link between farming and food without a great deal of thought and deliberation, would they?

All he needs to do now is to convince all his EU counterparts that he is right and that their job ought to be to see that the EU commission abandons their propensity for hindering the industry with a myriad of pettifogging regulations, and turn their minds to how best they can assist farmers to grow food.

Is Benn really saying something new or just saying the right thing at the right time?

I would like to hear him say the same thing a few more times at different events before I start to actually believe he knows what he is saying.

burocrat basher:

His father was a Fraud that ruined a generation of Aircraft companies with his vision of Nationalisation and building Concord

Don't forget that Anthony-Wedgewood Benn (nee Viscount Stansgate) also introduced the Second Class Post and put together the sucessful Leyland Van and Coach Company with the unsuccessful Austin Morris.    Result:  Post Delivery % fell from 96% next day to 36% next day and BMC (the new business) went broke.

However, Today I heard Milliband say, in answer to a question about the failure of the Labour Party's economic policies say; It is not so much a failure of the market system but a failure of politics, and for this " the Labour party must accept some responsibility as should the other political parties, the Tories for example ought to have .........................  "

No doubt he thought it clever to dodge the question and answer a question of his own design, however I am not so happy with this kind of dissembllng.

I think it will be very interesting to hear the opinions and thoughts of the Conservatives next week. 

We are a maximum of 18 months away from an election.  It would be nice to hear the thoughts of the opposition so that we have long enough to work out who is most likely to take Agriculture and the countryside seriously.  I look forward to reading the Tories approach to disease control, TB and food provinance. 

We already know our agriculture policies. After the Tories win and the SNP are Scotland's largest party at Westminster we can look forward to them being properly funded

Cameron will face constitutional catastrophe on his first day in office, he has two real choices bribe us to stay or bribe us to go either way the rump UK of England Wales and Northern Ireland will be bankrupt. There is a nuclear option of course, do nothing and hope his 100 plus Westminster majority will  prevent a referendum. (this may lead to a real crisis as Scots will not put up with a Tory govt long term) We are entering the last days of the old UK whatever happens.

well said he his-self.

The tories didnt do much for farming the last time.  They will bring in more legislation to suit  landlords like fbts or short assured tenancies. Thankfully they cant touch the scottish ag holdings.

Methinks it will go from labours ignorant indifference to tory semi informed indifference.

At least farming features on the scottish parliament agenda

HHS,

      As I have said before you are lucky to have your own Parliament to either veto or change the rubbish that comes out of Westminster and it would be good for England to have Regional Govt.The Population of Scotland is about 4 million I believe and the income from all the Taxes in Scotland still leaves you with a big defeceit which is made up from Westminster.Even the Royalities from the Oil do not balance your Budget so I dont think you will shout the odds to Westminster in the area of General Polotics .Your job is to look after yourselves through your Parliament and keep taking the money.

  The size of the Revolution in the Far East has not been realised properly in the West and their hunger through the shear scale of the number of people involved is taking all the Natural Resources available in the World.This will have a knock on effect in the West in that all food will be wanted now as well as Energy. You had better keep those Wind Turbines Greased they are going to be needed.

Scotland is in budget balance (without oil) its England (particularly the north) that is in deficit, don't believe what you read in the English press. Change is coming, whether its for the better is up to us

Do I detect a note of glee in the tone of he-him-self when it comes to the possibility of Scotland becoming 'Independant' of the 'Rump' of the 'Old UK'?  Glee is often followed by gloating which engenders a quite different response from onlookers. I am also drawn to an old saying which goes, "Be careful what you wish for, because you may get it."

As we are being constantly reminded by the UK's predominantly Scottish Government, the UK can do little in this big global world and, as evidence of this we hear from Brown that our present woes are a result of problems in the USA. In addition, he is constantly engaged in some international talks over one issue or another which suggests that he thinks that to retain our influence in the world we have to engage with it on a wide front. It also costs a lot of money simply to keep up this engagement and, as well, we have to show that Britain can justify it place at the table of the worlds power brokers.

 It is inconceivable that Scotland could pursue an independant policy at this level following independance, indeed I doubt that England could. Such a situation would play into the hands of those within Brussels who want to take our present seat at the UN and other world forums. Scotland's influence in England would wane without a commensurate rise in influence in Europe and even less in the wider world. England's too would be lessened.

Such strategic discussion is obviousely debatable but an independant Scotland would also mean an independant England and the results of that realisation upon the English is harder to predict than the effect of indpendance would be upon the Scots. My guess is that once the new reality had been absorbed by the English, the positions of most Scots in England would be open to question. For example there are hundreds of thousands in positions of authority in Central and Local Government, in the BBC (Which would have to change its name) Unions and Quangoes appear also to be dominated by Scots. 

At the tactical mundane but critical level, who would have the equipment of the armed forces such as Aircraft Carriers, Nuclear Bombs, Tanks etc. Where would Westminster Government contracts be placed?

Once again I repeat my belief that the the three hundred year old Union has been, is, and continues to be a blessing to all parties, I am proud to be British as an English equal to my Scottish friends. No better no worse. 

If however, the English are told that by their Scottish friends that their union is finished and that Britishness has no value, and that, as a consequence, the English are no longer British, They will then as Englishmen adapt to the new world in the way that best suits them.

As I read the politics of the UK however, the demise of the Labour Party in Scotland is not likely to be accompanied by a rise in the fortunes of the Conservatives or the Liberals, that leaves only the SNP with all its consequences. The demise of the Labour Party in England is more likely to result in a growth in the Liberals, (After all the Labour party replaced the Liberals a hundred years ago)

Bumpy political and diplomatic times ahead for the UK. Scotland, England and Wales I guess.

PS Were the UK to break up the EU would encourage N Ireland to go into Eire.

Peter I will try to answer some of your points. You are right I am very gleeful indeed at the prospect of Labour getting the boot. The prospect of Scottish independence is still up for negotiation and may yet be avoided. The Tory party has not shown sign yet that it wants to avoid it however, so I will try to put the Scots view of what might happen.

The idea that Scotland could not pursue an independent foreign policy is ridiculous Ireland and Finland manage perfectly well so will we.

It is time for an EU UN seat the present arrangement will not be tolerated much longer by Brazil and India.

England's loss of influence is with respect your problem. Scotland will benefit immensely from an EU veto and an independent foreign policy.

The Union is not delivering for Scotland it needs fundamental reform at minimum if it is to survive in any form.

The BBC has always been the EBC most of our news is inaccurate as a result.

I do not think the English are about to indulge in ethnic cleansing so Scots working and living in England will be perfectly safe as will English working and living in Scotland.

The government assets and debts will be divided subject to negotiation, just as when Czechoslovakia became two countries.

The Scots armed forces will probably not want too much old equipment, better deals are available in the worlds arms market. Finland for instance has a superb air force flying the F/A18 Hornet at a fraction of RAF costs.

Government contracts will be subject to EU law just as they are now, UK carrier parts are built in France has no one told you?

I do hope England adapts to its new place in the world such a process is long overdue.

The Conservative party in Scotland as a Westminster force is dead, in Holyrood it keeps the SNP in power.

Bumpy political times are certain catastrophe is not.

To reply: 

He his-self:

The idea that Scotland could not pursue an independent foreign policy is ridiculous Ireland and Finland manage perfectly well so will we

I did not say Scotland could not pursue an independent foreign policy, it could. However, I questioned the level at which seperate foreign policies could be pursued.

He his-self:

England's loss of influence is with respect your problem.

Indeed. And the consequences of that for one country will be of no more interest to England than consequences for anyone else.

He his-self:

Scotland will benefit immensely from an EU veto and an independent foreign policy.

It is doubtful that Scotland would have a veto given the current plans to restrict the use of the veto to five or six countries

He his-self:

I do not think the English are about to indulge in ethnic cleansing so Scots working and living in England will be perfectly safe as will English working and living in Scotland.

I agree, but the question is more a developing awareness of the influence on public and civic affairs, of a people whose central loyalty is not to the country of residence.

He his-self:

UK carrier parts are built in France has no one told you?

For many years I have not been ignorant of the importance and influence of foreign countries and foreign owned firms on our strategic interests.

It will be clear to you that I am in favour of the continuing Union, and that my view is not based on what I would consider selfish narrow pecuniary advantages to one side of the border or the other. I have, and still do, take the view that when you are in Union the parties accept that discrepancies in one transactional item or another will be applied to one party or another. It does not matter what or which party because the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. In marriage for example, my wife and I jointly own and share everything we have EVERYTHING. Yet we have seperate accounts but consider any decision by one as binding on both of us. We do not seek seperate advantage or question each others motives.

My view towards the Union with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is the same. We are seperate in sight but one in essence. We are seperate Scots, Welsh, Northern Irish and English but equal and united as British. Until recent years I have not questioned the motives of any Scot, Welshman or Northern Irishman. Sinn Fein and now the SNP have however, given me pause for thought as to their motives.

Maybe, my view is not the majority one and maybe things will change, but until it does my that view will continue to guide my actions. When, and if things change through the unilateral action of one party, then my views and my actions will, of necessity have to change. How those views and actions then develop is anyone's guess. It would be as if (God forbid) my wife suddenly announced she was leaving me. I would then have to re-appraise my whole way of life. The remainder of my life may be better or maybe worse, but change it would.

However, the central point is should either of us see that we could pursue a self interest, and that the other is a detraction to that interest, then a divorce may be an option. Note however, that the very notion of a self interest is antipathetic to the notion of a Union. A Union is about shared interests and values and a desire to work together for the common good. You do not get married to maximise your own interests, but to develop the hopes and aspirations for both parties.

In any union, when one party unilaterally decides to pursue self interests at the expense of the other party, the options remaining include divorce and its multifareous consequences. My fervant hope is that the British Union will continue, although, there does seem to be a lack of political structures capable of assisting it to do so.

Survive or not, it is however clear, that amongst the beneficiaries would be the bureaucratic elite of Brussels and, for a time, the political cliques that brought about its demise.

We certainly live in interesting times both globally and locally.  Whether or not they sever the constitutional connection altogether, it seems the Scots will become increasingly independant in terms of domestic legislation and eventually finances.  This will be to their benefit, but it doesn't have to be to the detriment of the other parts of the British Isles.

Here in Wales, the eventual outcome of devolution is perhaps much less clear than in Scotland.  Leaving aside the ultra nationalists who actually have a very small voice, many people question the whole point of yet another talking shop, or "jobs for the boys" as my very Welsh neighbour calls it.  Remembering that the independance vote had to be gerrymandered in the frst place, I suspect votes towards further devolution will not always go the way of severing the links.  On the plus side, however, we in the countryside are seeing benefits in that even many of the Labour representatives have rural links and sympathies, which trickles down into policymaking, and we now have a rural minister from a farming background.  Arguably a benign government in Cardiff Bay implementing EU dictates without bells a whistles may be a better master for us peasants in the fields than the one in Westminster has been.

Sadly the rape of Welsh resources by 19th and 20th century English and Scots industrialists has left the country in a far weaker position to be an independant trading nation, but the example of Ireland tells us it can be done if we were to avoid the socialist heritage and look to emulate the 'Celtic tigers' to our north and west in free trade and business freindly policies.  What we must avoid is allowing ourselves to falling into the void of simply holding our hands out to Brussels asking for support and surrenduring any nascent national identity to the Orwellian nightmare that is taking shape there.

What does annoy me and is alluded to in a Scottish context by hhs is the marginalising of much of the UK in media and political circles.  This probably applies to the north of England as much as Scotland and Wales (and that place on the northeast corner of Ireland.)  So much reporting ignores us altogether and so much else uses the term 'English' in contexts that should really apply to 'British'.  Too often a Southeast-centric view is assumed to apply across the country.  And very often it is just the 'funnies' that get reported, the "in other news a cross dressing Welsh farmer has been gored by a bull, ho ho ho" reports.  As a result it's hardly suprising that many of us living on the margins, even if we have origins elsewhere, begin to think that we might prefer to cut ourselves loose.

"the marginalising of much of the UK in media and political circles.  This probably applies to the north of England as much as Scotland and Wales (and that place on the northeast corner of Ireland.)  So much reporting ignores us altogether and so much else uses the term 'English' in contexts that should really apply to 'British'.  Too often a Southeast-centric view is assumed to apply across the country."

I totally agree with your Townie. I think however that it is not just the North of England but just about all of us outside a line drawn east and south from Oxford

I had a wonderful example of this some years ago when a friend called in a favour and my business partner and I got a free meeting with one the partners of Price Waterhouse. We met the man free for an hour, (usual charge £2500 per hour). He have us the answers we needed within the first five minutes and then said, "Lets have a cup of coffee and enjoy the rest of the hour, tell me where your business is located." We said Monmouth and he, a fifty five year old high flyer, said. "Where is Monmouth, I've heard of it.? I replied 140 miles west of here and up a bit. His reply was, "Oh I really have never been past Oxford as we always take our holidays in France."

After that I gave up on the metropolitan elite.

Townie,

         Dont be too sure about the state [or rape] of your Natural Resources.The South Wales Coal Field has the highest quality Coal in the UK  if not the World and we have plenty of it [you]. The supply of Uranium is finite and controlled on the World Market by three big suppliers they just like the Arabs are not going to give the stuff away. There is a great deal of research going on in the US to burn Coal cleanly.This will come to the Market very soon and with the Technology from the North Sea we will be able to get the Coal out without sending men down to actually dig it but do it remotely from the surface.South Wales also has a mild climate where the excess heat from Power generation could be used to grow crops that we import at the moment. The Parliament in Cardiff should be making its own plans for Energy now and turn their back on this farce we have in Westminster.

   I listened to some of the issues the Union Leaders came out with and I thought how the wheel has turned they are advocating using our Coal getting rid of the Rogues running the PostOffice and hitting the City and Energy and Utility Companies,perhaps they have come to their senses but Gordon and New Labour are lost at Sea.

Your article on devolution is certainly interesting but who are you trying to kid by implying that the benefits to Wales are an illusion? There are no suggestions in the article at all to confirm where the benefits of farming under defra  actually are whereas in Wales we have single farm payments paid mainly in the first permitted days of the period allocated on a historic basis as requested by the unions. [By the way, this method is sustainable for as long as the aims are the same.] We have TB compensation rates based on real valuations and not tables and look forward to attempts to clear our national herd of TB through action on cattle and wildlife fronts. We received some compensation for the dreadful foot and mouth fiasco last year which was denied us through Defra. Our hill farm payments have increased this year, our modulation rates are less than in England and Scotland. The list goes on. On the present set up ,we are unfortunately represented in the European Union by Defra or Westminster Ministers who are not responsible for implementing agricultural policy in Wales .This is clearly unsustainable and I for one look forward to the day when we do not have to deal with such rabble

Wati,

The benefits of devolution only become really apparent when you have a government with your own interests at heart.I have noticed a huge difference in the attitude of the Scottish government since the SNP came to power.It makes people more aware of just how bad Westminster rule is.I think we must always remember that the interests of agriculture(and fishing) have been bartered away by Westminster in EU negotiations,in return for benefits for the city of London.I think countries are better to govern themselves,rather than be governed by other countries.The British government have no interest in the success of Welsh(or Scottish) agriculture,and the forthcoming tory government wont be any better.

beaurocrat basher, scotland has a budget deficit of 8 billion, a mere bagatelle to the uk defecit of 50 billion..

Add 80% of oil revenue to scotland, ie 25 billion, scotland  goes to 17 billion surplus, and rest of uk goes to 75 billion beficit.

the act which turned me from a tory voter to snp was the fuel price escalator, started by the tories  and speeded up by labour. It crucified scottish farmers and all other regions who live far from the market and essential services.

It created an economic barrier to the south as effective as the pre 1707 english blockade of scots produce.

The only time a feel like supporting gordon brown is when he is attacked or ridiculed for being scottish. If he had been born in pakistan, it would be illegal to make an issue of it.

As a tenant farmer, escaping the influence of the house of lords has been a great improvement, but i await the day when our land tenure system is brought from the 19th century to the 21st.

 Writing as an Englishman I will be delighted when Scotland is once more an independent nation and we are free of the overwhelming Scottish influence in our internal affairs and the added bonus for we, the English, will be the removal of Gordon Brown and other influential Labour Politicians form our Parliament.. The sooner the SNP get the Scottish people to vote or total independence the better.

Dick