Has anyone tried using the new Defra website?  If you have you were probably reduced to absolute apoplexy by its inability to provide any useful information at all. 

Researching an update to an article about the Animal Transport Regulations, I thought I would make sure that the website links I had provided originally were still OK. 

Ha!  What a hope!  The very first one gave me a page saying that what I wanted no longer exists because of the website re-design and that I should be able to find what I wanted by following the natural layout of the Defra site.  Really?  They've got to be joking.

The first thing I was looking for was the form for an Animal Transporter Authorisation.  Using the Defra search function gave me a link to the form.  Click the link - this page no longer exists.  I know the Authorisations are granted by Animal Health so I try their website.  Not a sausage, no information whatsoever. 

Many farm related topics have now been shifted over to Business Link and the user is re-directed to their website.  I find the relevant bit and whoopee, there's a link to the form.  Just one click from success!  Sadly no - sorry this page no longer exists!  I give up.

Next, find a link to the guidance notes for the certificates of competence.  Sadly to say it's the same story.  You can get the actual legislation but of the Defra guidance booklets you will search in vain.  After half an hour of trying I decide to give up all together and write this.

 

I have some sympathy for DEFRA in that I have learned that redesigning a website or trying to implement chnages is never as straightforward as you hope it will be. However, I can see it is incredibly irritating when you try several avenues and none of them work. I have a contact that worked on the redesign. I may point him at this thread.

Thanks for taking the time to comment, and please accept our apologies for any inconvenience you’ve encountered using our website.

We have had some problems with our search function; our IT supplier is working to resolve these now. There have been significant improvements to search results in the last couple of days.  Third party search engines like Google should also now be picking up the changes we’ve made.

We’ve put some redirects in place on key pages, but unfortunately the scale of the changes make individual redirections unviable; we could not justify the cost and time it would have taken.

We are keen to hear comments on the site redesign, and would emphasise that we do have more improvements in the pipeline.  But we also recognise that many of you are accustomed to using the old version, which has been in place for a long time.  If there’s anything you miss from the old site, or specific documents or sections you can’t find, please feel free to tell us about it here or email us at webmaster {at} defra.gsi.gov.uk and we’ll get back to you as soon as possible.

Regards,
Simon Everest,
Defra Web Strategy

Thanks for coming on and explaining, Simon. Nice to hear from someone in the know on this issue.

Thanks Isabel.

What I forgot to say in the previous post was that I *think* the document the original poster is looking for can be found at the following link.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/welfare/transport/euguidance/documentation.htm

Let me know if that's not correct.

Regards,
Simon

Ah, I see my mistake now. 

I had assumed that the link to 'EU welfare guidance' would lead me to either the relevant EU Commission website (which is what you get on some other sections of the Defra site) or to the text of the relevant EU directive, which, in researching my original article, I printed off and found about as impenetrable as a similar thickness of armour plate.  As what I was after was guidance on what applies in England (after we have taken various derogations and interpreted the EU jargon into understandable English) I didn't even look here.

I suppose that really says as much about me as about how Defra expect the average English farmer to interact with the website.  I actually regard myself as being in favour of the EU if it stopped being a political institution, stopped feeling the need to impose one size fits all policies about every last little facet of life and all together acted a bit more as if the citizens of member states were actually grown-ups not children.  In fact if 'they' were a bit more like 'us'.

I suppose that is my problem.  I know we are part of the EU, but I still think that it begins at Calais.  Of course it doesn't, it starts on my front doorstep, in which case why not drop the 'EU' distinction.  If the link had said just 'welfare guidance' I may well have followed it.  Labelling it as 'EU' seems to indicate that is is something different from guidance to be followed in England.

AHHHHHH.....I could hardly use the old one. Why did they change it when i just worked out what to do,mind still i couldnt use it very well.Why does the Goverment make a site relivent to Farmers and then make it in a way we cant find anything?

 

Jacobus:

I had assumed that the link to 'EU welfare guidance' would lead me to either the relevant EU Commission website (which is what you get on some other sections of the Defra site) or to the text of the relevant EU directive, which, in researching my original article, I printed off and found about as impenetrable as a similar thickness of armour plate.  As what I was after was guidance on what applies in England (after we have taken various derogations and interpreted the EU jargon into understandable English) I didn't even look here.

 Thank you Jacobus. I will pass your comment onto my colleagues responsible for this area of the website.  I can see how this could be confusing, and we'll have a look to see if we can change it to make it clearer.

 Thanks again,
Simon

Jacobus - you can't fault the service you are getting from Simon.

Brave of Simon to put his head over the parapet, well done him. Does he have colleagues in the mapping department......?

 

Is it not Defra who are looking into the performance of the RPA? Where in fact in our civil service does the incompetence stop?

So Simon will you continue to look at this website for ideas, a bit off topic I know, but you could use a simalar way of speaking as in this site. Plus you can get more contacts and opinions from a more informal farming world which will help.

~Meggiewes~

Isabel Davies:

Jacobus - you can't fault the service you are getting from Simon.

Isabel, I think you deserve the kudos for passing it on to Simon.  As others have said, he deserves praise for facing the forum.  To be honest despite the general bad opinion of Defra amongst the farming community, I have always found the individuals I have come across over the years to be very helpful, supportive and willing to listen.

I know that when there is change in something like a website there are difficulties because users can no longer find what they want in place they expected it.  The old Defra site was somewhat idiosyncratic in a lot of ways, but we had got used to it.  On the face of it the new site promises a much more logical organisational structure.  Most farmers will expect to find most of what they want on the 'Food and Farming' tab.

If you go to that section and scroll down the page you come to a section:

Farmer advice and support at Business Link

Defra has launched a new dedicated Farming section on Business Link.
It contains plain English guides on livestock, crops, organics, and agricultural wages and tenancies.
During 2009 this will expand to offer a complete range of guidance, information and online tools for farm businesses.

I'm not quite sure why Defra are farming this out to Business Link, to save money/use a budget designed for another entity?  But as I commented originally this was set up before the new Defra site and now contains links back to Defra which lead nowhere.  These need to be sorted out PDQ.

Maybe when they're complete these 'plain English' guides will be the logical place for farmers to start looking for advice and guidance.  I hope so, they could be very useful.  As a business often selling breeding sheep to novice smallholders/hobbyists I am very conscious that they are entering a vast minefield of regulation that will overwhelm them. 

When we first started with sheep in 1994 I was surprised at the size of the package of bumph we had from MAFF.  I was reassured when I realised that most of it was not relevant to me and I was also helped by the fact that books written for the novice shepherd managed to summarise it in a few succinct pages.  I understand that the same books we bought then, which are still in print in revised editions, no longer attempt to do this, mainly because they know it will be out of date almost before the ink is dry!   What newcomers and experienced farmers alike need from the Defra website is somewhere they can find out, in plain and simple terms, what they should be doing, how they should be doing it and who to contact if they don't understand.

Having long experience of websites (design and use) both personally and through Mrs J's professional IT persona, I can see that what often happens is that between the organisation's departments and the website designers there is developed what they see as a logical approach to presenting information.  Sometimes this coincides with what the average user will expect and sometimes it doesn't.  Take my case this morning of looking for the guidance notes for the animal transport regulations.

From the food and farming home page menu, the first option 'Legislation, policy, regulation and guidance' looked a likely prospect.  From there I thought that Animal gatherings, transport and disease control looked hopeful, but actually it only has links to the actual legislation, so back to the home page.  Next try Farm animals  - looks more promising, let's try Livestock movements and tagging.  Sorry, wrong guess, this is all about reporting and recording movements not about actually moving animals.  Next let's go for Animal welfare , great this looks the best bet Welfare at transport looks like a winner.

This is actually the right place, but as I said before it didn't seem to me that EU welfare guidance would be the place I would want to look, so I passed it by.  Incidentally, the other options here are:

Horse and pony transport

Hot weather

Legislation

Pet animals

I'm not quite sure what hoses, ponies and pets are doing in the Farm Animal section, but I expect there is some logic to it somewhere!

Now may be I'm not a typical user, but it would seem more useful to me to have everything relating to moving livestock, transport; welfare; biosecurity; movement reporting and recording; in one place not scattered around.

Anyway, I've gone on a bit there so I'll shut up now, but for one final comment. 

What's happening with the Whole Farm Approach? 

It seems years now since I was involved with the first trial version of what was billed to become the system that would bring together all the online threads for farmers.  Progress seems to be at an absolute snail's pace and the only useful things it has done for me were that I could apply for waste exemptions online and that I can now access all the cross compliance stuff with interactive checklists.  It seems to me that this has been a huge wasted opportunity and I wouldn't mind betting that most forum users have never even heard of it.

markw:

Does he have colleagues in the mapping department......?

I sent my map corrections off last week (two fields which were on the previous map, but not on the new one) and thought that to be on the safe side I should send it Recorded Delivery.  I took it into the post office.  The woman behind the counter asked if I realised that sending it to a box number wouldn't get me an individual signature, I said I would be happy just to know that it was part of a sack which had arrived in the right place.

She then attempted to put the address to the computer to print out the label, but the computer wouldn't have it at any price.  Apparently the post code on the prepaid envelope doesn't exist and there's no way at all to get any proof of delivery!

meggiewes:

So Simon will you continue to look at this website for ideas, a bit off topic I know, but you could use a simalar way of speaking as in this site. Plus you can get more contacts and opinions from a more informal farming world which will help.

~Meggiewes~

 

Hi Meggiewes,

I can't claim to read every topic on here, but I, and I'm sure other colleagues, do look at these forums and other similar discussion sites when time allows.  Isabel contacted me via Twitter, which has also proved to be useful in keeping me up-to-date on a range of topics.

Regards,
Simon

markw:

Brave of Simon to put his head over the parapet, well done him. Does he have colleagues in the mapping department......?

 

Thanks markw - I work with Defra's Geographical Information team, but I suspect you are mainly interested in the RPA's field mapping?  Let me know if that's not the case, but if it is, the best course of action would be to contact the RPA directly.

Sorry I can't be more help,
Simon

Quite impressive to see a government official from anywhere on earth wade in amongst the commoners, especially someone from DEFRA into a group of farmers.  Too bad someone from our USDA's FSA won't visit with those of us on American farming forums.  Isabel must be very powerful indeed!!

 Hi Jacobus,

Thanks for your detailed comments.  I can’t answer all of them, but I’ll reply as best I can.  Unfortunately I can’t respond to your comments on Whole Farm Approach, but I have forwarded them to the team responsible.

The aim of our pages on Business Link is to connect the information Defra is responsible for with other information relevant to farmers, including financial and employment guidance.  The expectation is that rather than businesses needing to understand the organisation of Government, or which Department is responsible for which rules or guidance, they can all be found in a single place.  The Business Link team are currently working to correct any broken links our changes have created.  There will be more information added to Business Link soon.

The new structure of the website was largely driven by customer research.  We spent a lot of time working with representatives with a range of interests in Defra’s work, including farmers and their agents.  We used a step by step process, testing with these representatives throughout.  

We’ve obviously worked to improve the visual design as well, for a number of reasons, not least to make text and links more obvious, and the whole thing more accessible.  

But getting a structure that more effectively matches the way that our website users see us was the priority; as before we’ve, still got a long way to go, but improving the first few levels in the site is an important first step.

Regards,
Simon

Isabel Davies:

I have a contact that worked on the redesign.

Well done Isabel, brilliant and I will see that the management hear and you get a banker size bonus. This is proof that the 4th estate works and that "new Media" while excellent it takes the human touch to kick it off.

I do hope that Simon is given a gong for his efforts. This is exactly the type of thing required. Transparency and some one taking an interest.

Why do defra want to use business link, (I wouldn't use the business link if you paid me) and defra want their own chat room and their own communication when there is this excellent site? Defra will do nothing other than let the communications on their chat sites disappear into the digital ether.

Perhaps we can smoke out the membership bodies now and make them more accountable!

All I did is send Simon a message!

The thanks should really go to him, for being so willing to talk to everyone.

motley:

Why do defra want to use business link

Two reasons.

The first reason has to do with the development of regional government following the long term EU objective of splitting Europe into regions each with their regional boundaries. The idea being to make existing national bourdaries of lessor 'value' than the regional ones.

Business Link is merely the 'badge' of the regional organisation which is currently tasked with various duties on behalf of the British Government but will be increasingly responsible to the EU. Should Business Link be renamed or re-organised in the years ahead, the 'badge' may change but its roles will be kept at regional level in pursuance of this Euro Stategy.

The second reason is to allow the national government and its ministers (and top bureaucrats) to be seen to be at a distance from the application of policy and the policy itself. A subsidiary reason is that politicians think, that to put operations to a regional level may be more cost effective and easier to control, in that managerial pressure and implied threats can be more easily put on people who the top decision makers are not working with on a daily basis.

Does this sound a bit like Yes Minister?  If so, remember that Anthony Jay its writer made up all his stories, only to be astonished & horrified later to discover that that is exactly how the system works!

PS. Good for you Simon. My guess is that you will leave the service before your retirement date.

 

 

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your message.  I'll pass your comments on to my colleague, working on Business Link for Defra.  I have to say that I don't recognise anything you describe in my experience of Business Link though...  I'm semi-tempted to ask them if they might also know the location of Area 51 and the truth about the moon landings, whilst we're looking for conspiracies... ;-)

Regards,
Simon

Simon Everest - Defra:

I'm semi-tempted to ask them if they might also know the location of Area 51 and the truth about the moon landings, whilst we're looking for conspiracies... ;-)

You may light of such ideas as those of which I wrote, but I am afraid that life's experiences - if you manage to keep an open mind - will lead you to conclude that powerful people always seek to change the world into the image they prefer. There are, of course, silly conspiracy theories and, a fuller reading of my postings would have revealed that I am somewhat sceptical of most of them. Despite what you now think, there are such things as long term strategic plans of which most are unaware.

For example, the transmogrification of the European Common Market into a constitutional European State for example, came about because sixty years ago a group of European Leaders reasons as perceived as good by them, set about developing a vision of European integration. They planned and manuevred events and took whatever opportunities came along, so as to advance their vision.

For you to liken my comments to Area 51 and the moon landings conspiracy does less credit to your own powers of analysis and understanding than it does to mine. Your comments, possibly inadvertently, intended to pour scorn on my views have, in my own mind. Somewhat discredited your own understanding of the projects in which you are engaged. In future I shall be careful to seperate your undoubted technical expertise from your opinions. The former is probably well grounded through both theory and empirical knowledge; the latter is naively formed and had better remain unexpressed until you have an historical perspective.

 

 

Peter,

I'm sorry you've taken my light-hearted comment that way.  I'd hoped that the little ;-) wink would show that I wasn't being entirely serious.  If the general feeling is that forum comments should be strictly business I'm happy to do so.

As before, I will speak to my colleague who works with Business Link.  However, I can point out that the central businesslink.gov.uk site is principally a national website, rather than regional, and is 'owned' by HMRC.  The local/regional Business Link 'face-to-face' advice service is funded by the Regional Development Agencies, under the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and I think it's this service you're referring to.

Regards,
Simon 

Simon. The 'wink' did not come through on my machine. "As you were" as the RSM used to say.

Cheers

 Peter