At face value, the new policy document from the UK Independence Party on food and farming seems to have much to recommend it.
In a nutshell, it says that British agriculture has sustained numerous heavy blows in recent times and membership of the EU has made matters worse not better. EU regulations act as a straight jacket on farming, while the cost of membership is a rip-off for taxpayers. The system is biased in favour of the French, it says, while membership of the EU denies the UK its own seat at the WTO. The CAP is wide open to fraud, it adds, while the "open border policy" makes the UK more vulnerable to imported disease. UKIP says that UK farming would be better served outside the EU, where it would set its own policies. This would include establishing a supermarket ombudsman to ensure farmers get a fairer price, reducing tariffs to give Commonwealth farmers a better chance in the UK market, and allowing bigger farmer co-operatives, to give more clout to producers. As I said, a lot of this sounds pretty appealing.
But personally I'm not convinced. For a start, I've always believed that much of the problem with red tape in this country is not because of Brussels regulation per se, but is down to the enthusiam of UK politicians and civil servants in implementing it. I don't see that changing, whichever political party is in power. Then there is the question of trade. OK, I'm sure the UK would not be ostracized if it were to leave the EU. But to continue trading with the EU we would still have to meet many of the same regulations, with all the burdens that implies.
Then there is the question of farm support. Currently the UK gets about £3.3bn in subsidies and other supports from Europe. OK withdrawal from the EU would save the Treasury a small fortune. But I can't believe farming would be in for a share of this saving if we were outside the CAP, given the parlous state of the country's finances and the demands from other sectors of the economy such as education, health and defense.
And I do not buy the UKIP line that the UK is poorly represented by the EU at the WTO. As part of the EU, we are in of a powerful group which is seeking a controlled move towards market liberalisation, rather than a free-for-all. As a lone voice, the UK would have no voice in the WTO. Of course, we could link up with another group, perhaps joining forces with the likes of Brazil, New Zealand and India as UKIP suggests. But I'm not sure British farming would be best served by pulling down tariffs on things like Brazilian beef and New Zealand lamb.
If nothing else, the new policy document from UKIP is cetrainly thought provoking and can be found at:  http://www.ukip.org/media/pdf/UKIPFFCpolicy2009.pdf

The system is biased in favour of the French = That's because the French government backs its farmers.  If we were out of the EU we wouldn't have any support from our own government (including that of a conservative government) and our farmers would have an even weaker position in the global market place as it would loose some of the benefit we gain by having stronger farmer backing EU governments.  . 

The "open border policy" makes the UK more vulnerable to imported disease = We would still employ lax border control and infected meat coming from outside EU countries would still arrive.  It is to do with our own border bio-security or lack of that ensures meat and produce still comes from abroad.  If we were out of the EU would our supermarkets suddenly stop importing south american or african produce? I very much doubt it.

UKIP says that UK farming would be better served outside the EU, where it would set its own policies = what would these be.  Would farmers still get SPS monies I doubt it.  Would farmers receive any agri environment money? I doubt it.  If you look at EU politics the British farmers has managed to retain most of the funding it receives as a result of the support to agriculture from EU governments rather than British governments fighting for our farmers.

This would include establishing a supermarket ombudsman to ensure farmers get a fairer price = surely this is anti-competitive (not my view) and the 'free trade' lovers within UKIP couldn't handle all the red tape of a supermarket ombudsman just let the world trade freely and let the consumer buy what they want to buy (again not entirely my view).  Returns to farmers have also fallen accross the world over the years.  Being in or out of the EU wouldn't have stopped actual returns to farmers falling.  In my mind it has more to do with buying policies, rise of supermarkets and big businesses but hey that's the markets, cheaper is better etc etc.  More to do with right wing short sighted policy than the EU. 

reducing tariffs to give Commonwealth farmers a better chance in the UK market = Surely this is what the CAP was set up for to protect European farmers and UK farmers from being too reliant on imports.  Remember pre WWII British agriculture was depressed mainly because we were importing a lot of food from our commonwealth cousins as they could produce more, and more cheaper produce than UK farmers.

 The world has also changed.  We do not have a large empire anymore.  It is history now move on.  We don't trade with our empire countries as much as we do our EU neighbours.  New Zealand and Aussie farmers are far less reliant on UK markets now due to the emergence of far more lucrative and growing markets right on their doorsteps (well not quite but nearby) i.e. India and South East Asia.  Canada is also far less reliant on sending grain back to the UK.  Our commonwealth countries markets have been shaped by moving on and finding their own markets they don't need the UK to buy all its produce. 

Although I am not a fan of red-tape I wouldn't blame it all on the EU.  They have red tape in pretty much every developed society.  I don't like EU red tape but then I wouldn't fancy it else where.  It only seems to be getting worse no matter where you come from.  Kiwi's and Aussies moan to me about it as does a chap I know who lives in Japan.  It doesn't suddenly vanish if you leave the EU. 

We are only one stop on the train from Calais, and however much some people would like it, our trade is strongly tied to Europe.

I see no reason why we should continue to accept stupid, destructive or pointless rules from Brussels for our own bureacrats to make worse: who do they benefit except those in Brussels whose salaries and expenses make those of our own MPs look modest if not mean?   We had a referendum for a Common Market without trade barriers, and the great majority of us still support that rather strongly.  There is not a lot the EU could do if we unilaterally decided to withdraw from the political elements but keep to the trade agreements, and it appears that several other countries might well join us.

 In fact I am also in favour of substantial aid going from this country to Eastern Europe in an attempt to improve living standards there and improve the stability of the continent, but too much of the cash flow currently is towards France and some of the mediterranean countries, who don't need it .

The usual mish mash of paranoia, fantasy and denial of reality I have come to expect of UKIP. Particularly annoyed that Scottish agricultural policy which has nothing to do with Westminster is totally ignored and that young farmers are similarly treated. Rubbish from start to finish, a third rate press release masquerading as policy.

Yes a good rope and a tug boat should do it

 Phil re UKIP

For the first time in my 67 years I have seen a political party produce a policy document which is entirely and completely supportive of our own farming community. Efforts by the Tories, and I write as a former Tory election agent and party activist for most of my adult life, to create a credible farming policy have been idiotic and mainly concerned with allowing unlimited imports of temperate foodstuffs into this country in their stupid pursuit of globalisation and their unbridled support for all the bullshit and redtape emanating from the EU.

I wish UKIP all the best and I am quite sure that many other patriotic English farmers who are sick of wrestling with EU bureaucracy  and who are also saddened at the loss of our national independance will support this excellent party in any forthcoming election.

Dick

i always though we voted to join a common market, i feel i must have missed something somewhere.

Re EU Membership,

                            Sorry Phil going to have a go at your Comment.The amount we receive back from Europe is a participle of what we pay in. Further what we receive back is scrutinised by the EU, so that if you are an eco friendly Mobile phone regectionalist  you may receive Funds from Europe as well as the Butterfly Harmony preserver and you are put down as a net receiver of Funds from the EU.Good British Pounds comes back in the form  of crap reciprocates.So the figures are rubbish in reality.In reality GB has not woken up to what has and is happening we are being Hoodwinked and Internally Raped by Europe.MF move from Coventry to France because the French Government gave initiatives that the GB Govt thought were not Approved by the EU.The EU Approves in General not Detail and the French exploit this.This is the Road to Bankruptcy and we are going to see the EU in Termoil and lets just hope the Scots Nationalist go to the Aid of this Floundering Monster.

  Bae will not deal with Europe anymore and engages with the US,Canada,Australia etc and the Whole of the UK will experence this same senario.

   The Scots will probably reply with Europhobia they do it on the back of good English Pounds not Scottish bad Banks Money.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland no longer exist, that has to be understood. Our Parliament is allowed to mess up defence, education, health, social services, transport and can delegate execution of the associated policies to our local government system which has Regional Assemblies, even in England, quietly sitting out of the public eye, waiting to be a tool of the EU Parliament.

It is the EU naval presence off the east coast of Africa that is monitoring piracy, it is EU observers who monitor the weird elections in Zimbabwe and Afghanistan, it is the EU Commissioners who have approved the RBS good company/bad company split, etc etc. It is the EU which is going to castrate the functioning of the financial services in the City of London.

I'm getting on in years and if the younger folk of the UK want to carry on down the EU road, which will end in tears, then serve you right.

Provided the English MPs can't, numerically, be outvoted by the Scots, Welsh and N Irish it is England that holds the power (commercial and industrial) in our islands. I think we have tremendous potential to trade elsewhere than the EU, I think we have tremendous potential to attract EU industry and financial services to England to avoid the draconian tax regimes being built in the EU. England has a future on its own if the Scots Welsh and Irish want to separate from us and beg from the EU till - they are a financial burden on us and we also have the madness of our parliamentary system whereby they can vote on certain English matters and we cannot vote on theirs.

As for agriculture, we (England) can tailor our own policies. It was the EU who did for the Milk Marketing Board monoply and it was the EU who approved Growhow's monoply of the AN market in the "UK" - and Growhow subsequently shafted its customers by funding its new plant at Ince by the AN price hike last year with no more than a murmur from the farming industry.

If you like the EU sit back and enjoy the ride, if you don't - I don't think there is much one can do apart from await its natural demise and find other things to do in life that take your mind iff the issue - provided that you are allowed to do those things.

A comment above was made about red tape. It is not the EU in fact who are assembling and publishing the documentation we suffer for SP claims and eco greenie issues. I mentioned in a post a while back that an long standing Belgian friend, now retired from the Agricultural Commission, said to me that they were amazed at the approach taken in policies, conditions and documenation by DEFR, RPA and the relevant quangos. His view was that our civil servants have gone completely over the top in gold plating EU directives. We of course know this is for employment purposes- there are a lot of people in DEFRA who are unemployable in private enterprise as a result of the topics of their "university" degrees.

I have been interested to note in the Mapping Update exercise that single strand electric fencing sytems are generating new field numbers and acreages. If this were to be an exercise that was repeated every year, together with creating work by including inexcusable errors, then that's a job for several lifetimes!

 

 

 

I think England probably should leave the EU.I think they would be more comfortable in the American fold.Post independence,Scotland will have to decide if membership is going to be in the countrys best interests.

There is some thoughful debate going on here.

In 1961 I had to got to Balloon Street in Manchester for an interview to become the CWS's first Management Trainee.  I was taken to Manchester in the same car as the Directors of the very large CWS group of factories for whom I was then working.

I was a young man, and so when asked by one of the interviewing board if I had any questions of them, I asked whether or not they thought that Britain should enter the 'Common Market.' After a great deal of animated discussion amongst themselves, the chairman turned to me and said, "A good question young man, you really got everyone going." He then summed up by saying that he didn't know what to think as, 'even the experts are undecided and so it was night on impossible to him to know what was best for Britain or not."

That was nearly fifty years ago, and I am still not sure.

I think however, that I want to be friends with Europe, I want to trade with them, I want to cooperate with them. But I do not want to marry them, nor do I want politicians arranging a marriage with them on my behalf.

Arranged marriages generally only work when one of the partners is happy to play a subservient role.

 

So glad you're pleased with these policies Dick, but, like much about UKIP, not all is what it seems with the document presented as the work of Mr

Agnew.  So let's slay the myth that UKIP has produced its own policy document - they haven't!

However, they are streets ahead of the pack when it comes to cheek!

It would appear that Mr Agnew, apparently unable to formulate any meaningful rural policies of his own, has done a 'google' search and found a ready made policy document.  The only problem for UKIP is that Mr Agnew's new policy is taken directly from the, BNP, rural policy document, years before UKIP even came into being. This policy was published, in detail, in the 'Countrysider' newspaper back in 2003.  The same policies can be read on the Land & People web-site to this day.  It includes:

Opposition to the cultivation of GM crops in the UK.

Local referenda on hunting with dogs.

Better labeling on foodstuffs, particularly as to country of origin.

Support for British farmers.

Better control over TB in cattle.

There is one issue though that UKIP has no policy on – in keeping with other Establishment parties – including the so-called “Greens”. That being the sadistic ritual slaughter of millions of British cattle, sheep and chickens every year for religious reasons, a vile practice that no true animal lover can condone (a practice that the BNP will outlaw). But then again, should we be surprised by this omission?  If you are out to court certain sections of the ethnic-minority vote, as UKIP are, then there are some issues that are best avoided; ritual slaughter being one and the preservation of our British national identity being another!

UKIP – is little more than an Establishment pressure valve created for the purposes of neuturing anti-EU protest and steering naive patriots into a controlled political cul-de-sac.

Incidentally, despite the rhetoric of not working with racists in Britain (though stealing their policies is OK), across the channel, Mr Agnew, and all of the other UKIP MEP's happily sit alongside extremists besides which the BNP looks almost liberal!  In Brussels, UKIP is allied to racists, Holocaust deniers, Nazi apologists, homophobic's, and those who believe immigrants arriving by boat should have those boats sunk underneath them!  To fanciful to be true, just 'google search' for members of UKIP's EFD group in the EU parliament!

Truth is often stranger than fiction ...... and  another UKIP myth is slain!

mr beaurocrat basher, have you noticed recently how the pound rises and falls with the oil price?

once scotland has gained control of 90 % of this oil by 2013, the pound will look just like the lira used to.

my 4 year old daughter will be retired before browns bank bailout is repaid. the banks should not have been saved, they should have hung as they grew.

a banker has just paid £1.2m for a house near here, they are just carrying on as if nothing has happened.

as for the eu, scotland will probably be better off out of it, as our govt will still support farmers.

if the bnp take over england, they will probably invade us , "to unite english speaking peoples"

Glasshouse,

                Sorry I have not watched the Oil price against the £ but I say again your Oil Analogy is still off the mark.A lot of the Oil is in Irish and English Waters as is most of the Gas.The Gas and Oil belongs to whoever has purchased the Rights to abstract it. My gripe with the EU is that I am one of the Mugs paying a Hell of a lot of Tax both direct and Indirect that is being used to the benefit of Folks in other Lands that do not and never will reciprecate.Then the EU subsidises Industries to relocate in other parts of the EU with my Money to put Folks out of work in the UK leaving me to pay for the Unemployment here in the UK.I am not saying we should get out of Europe I am saying Europe is not working for us.I think this is the basis of the UKIP Policy towards Europe and until the Main Political Parties realise that the Man in the Street is very discontented like myself with the way Europe is manipulated by Unelected Bureaucrats with Agenda that are not consistent with what the Man on UK's Streets wants.

BB with the greatest respect the man on the street cannot always get what he wants. The UKIP position is fundamentally dishonest, dishonest about the EU, dishonest about what is on offer outside it (Swiss EEA membership), dishonest on climate change (the line "the climate is changing but mankind is not responsible" is hilarious. Who/what is? Pixies?) dishonest about the future (the relative size of the UK versus China, India etc). The Conservatives have to face reality as they expect to get elected, as we will shortly see nothing will be done about Lisbon, because it is necessary and a good thing. Fantasy politics is fine for forums like this Cameron will have to govern, expect ever closer union, it is in the UKs best intrest, and will be sold to you as Conservative inspired "reform" PS expect more Scots "respect" from Cameron too. They have given up on stopping us leaving. (but with ever closer union it will be sold to you as "Conservative devolution of power to ordinary people")

myth slayer:

UKIP – is little more than an Establishment pressure valve created for the purposes of neuturing anti-EU protest and steering naive patriots into a controlled political cul-de-sac

You do sound a little like one of those people whose job it is to undermine, by whatever means possibly, arguments that the Eurocrats feel may shine light upon their dark schemes for the re-building of the grand European Dream of Constatine, Pope Gregory, Hitler, Jean Claude Monet, Willi Brandt and others.

As to the UKIP being an establishment concoction, is this a myth createred by the myth slayer?

myth slayer:

Mr Agnew, and all of the other UKIP MEP's happily sit alongside extremists besides which the BNP looks almost liberal!  In Brussels, UKIP is allied to racists, Holocaust deniers, Nazi apologists, homophobic's, and those who believe immigrants arriving by boat should have those boats sunk underneath them! 

Maybe you should explain how the Eurocrats give funds to the 'Groupings' within the European Parliament and of how they refuse to fund individual parties but only groups 'approved' by themselves. Do you think that because parties 'have' to join groups to be funded, that that might mean some groups sit alongside others as being the least worse option?

 

Hhs,

     History shows us that the Man on the Street does in general get what he wants be it through Revolution or Evolution.With due respect you speak as a recipient of Funds from a Fraud, that Fraud is the perpetuation under the guise of the EU. A collection of Nations that has been so Stupid as to allow a Non elected Body to Administer many of the States Functions.That is not to say all is Bad but to Tax one Man to give to another as a Subsidy to break the first's Back is one step further than King John.I do not see why any Subsidy whatsoever should be paid to Agriculture only in areas where Geography does not allow fair competion.ie Hill Farmers. I do not see that Renault should receive Funds for so called Research when they are Bust in reality and the French Govt opposes any Help to Rover, just one example of many which is paid for directly or Indirectly from Tax Payers in Europe.

  Climate Change is another con from the privaleged thought school of Dreamers.If they renamed it Fossill Fuel replacement ,yes, but the Ozone Gap has healed over the Southern Atmosphere and the Ice that is melting on one side of Antartica is extending on the other.

  The size of the Country or its Population does not determine the Power, Wealth,Influence it has.A combination of all these may influence that state and the UK is a good Example of this as so is Germany and Austria.

  We will see what will happen with your Hypothesis on Mr Cameron and the Lisbon Treaty.I personnally think it will be one of the main Election issues because the Labour Party have deceived the Nation by offering a Referendom on the Matter to get into Power then renaging on the Promise.Proving they are unbankable.

  Where I think the Europhiles fall down is in the respect that even the hardline States at the centre of Europe are on a knife edge Majority Vote for their Euro Plans in their own Countries, as soon as someone like the Tories Kick they will all kick.

I'm afraid this response is a red herring, Peter, and I trust you'll understand if I do not run after it. But nonetheless, to respond briefly.

"You do sound a little like one of those people whose job it is to undermine...":

I'm sorry that you take that view.  As nothing could be further from the truth.  I have no desire whatsoever to undermine any genuine attempts torestore democratic sovereignty to this country. 

 But sadly, I don't believe that UKIP is, in truth, the political lifeboat that we so desperately need!  That is not to say that the vast majority of their members are not decent well meaning people.  But take a look at the actions of it's MEP's (or rather the inaction's) and it's another story entirely!

Without wishing to labour the point, just look for a moment at but one fact that should concern you.  The BBC, is well known for its Europhile approach, yet it gives Nigel Farage, MEP, supposedly an enemy of all that the BBC wants to see, the sort of publicity that no other anti EU personality gets.  Mr Farage for instance has appeared on the 'Question Time' programme,more times than most, if not all, Cabinet Ministers.  I find that odd, to say the least!

"Maybe you should explain how the Eurocrats give funds to the 'Groupings' within the European Parliament"

While it's true that forming a group within the EU parliament leads to extra funding - Mr Farage, as group leader, now get's a suit of offices and his own personal chauffeur driven limousine - there is still such a thing as morality, being true to yourself, and to your electors, to take into account!  We've all seen quite enough hypocrisy from Westminster politicians and we don't need more of the same from the new kid on the block!   Do you not remember Mr Farage's boast that he'd already received £2+ in allowances and expenses for being an MEP - that's before the forming of the EFD grouping!  Remember also that UKIP itself is not allowed to benefit directly from this additional Euro largess!

In essence the UKIP position comes down to rank hypocrisy and greed.

In the UK, whenever asked about forming an alliance with the BNP, UKIP spokesmen repeatedly stated that there was no way they'd work with the likes of them. Calling the former racist and fascist.  Yet in Brussels, for it would seem financial self interest, those high principals fly out of the window, and some of the most disreputable politicians on the European continent are welcomed as bed-fellows.  Is an office suite and limousine really worth this much hypocrisy?  I don't think so!

Put another way, if UKIP cannot be trusted to keep its word on such an issue, how can anyone be expected to trust them on anything else.

So what about the wholesale pinching of the BNP agricultural policy and pretending it is their own?  Do you approve of such things by UKIP?

 

 

BB if you honestly believe the man on the streets gets anything in a revolution you must have missed every single lesson of history. Iran, Russia even the good old USA had one and not one has been able to stand against the tide of change, economic, demographic and political. ( but why are Eurosceptics so fond of violent fantasy is it because they keep losing democratic votes?) The Lisbon era is over Cameron and even Haig have accepted it, you will eventually or you will move on to something else (the electorate don't care but the SUN will tell them not too anyway). As to the climate change thing it is UKIP you need to ask. They have said the climate is changing we should be told why and how. Is it Pixies? Fairies? or perhaps Goblins? UKIP should say which it is now, I can't wait for the answer.

 

Hhs,

     The English Revolution [Started by the Scots] was born out of the King insisting on Rule by Divine Right.That right in its self allowed the King to Tax where and who he wanted.The Revolution finished that practice and Parliament then became the Body that Taxed the Nation.The American War of Independance also stopped Taxation without Representation for the Colonists.The French Revolution although Highjacked by Napoleon for his Adventures released a Nation from accute Poverty.

  Evolution has given the Man in the Street the Right to Vote,to be Educated,to hold Money and Property by his endevers,to Worship whatever God he prefers,to Divorce,to bear Child outside of the Womb,to give One Human cell to another Family Member to cure illness or afliction.

  These functions of the State have been born from a privalige we in the UK cherish and call Freedom,fought for by genuine desires of People to allow others to better themselves without Hinderance from unelected State Institutions who have Agenda of their own usually not in the Persons Interest and here once again we have the unelected Taxing,Law Making,using the Institution as the Instrument of Power not for the People or by the People.

 I dont know what UKIP say regarding Climate Change [Which was Global Warming until that Myth was exposed] what I do know is that the underlying Current in Europe is for EU Change to stop overTaxation,over Regulation and a return to honest Democracy and Freedom from the Brussels Barrons .

myth slayer:

  I'm afraid this response is a red herring, Peter, and I trust you'll understand if I do not run after it. But nonetheless, to respond briefly."You do sound a little like one of those people whose job it is to undermine...":

I agree it was, and I am pleased that you did not follow it up. We can now honestly discuss, (I say discuss rather than debate because I am uneasy with the status quo but uncertain as to a sensible alternative) the European situation, and what is meant by a return to democratic sovereignty in these Islands.

Fire away. I am all ears..

BB it is democracy and freedom that has brought us to the EU. It has majority support across the UK (Tory Labour Lib Dem SNP etc etc). Same the in rest of the Union, and it has US support and encouragement. It now stands as the guarantor of those very freedoms you mention. Revolution cannot change fundamental economic reality, neither can UKIP, they are lying about what is on offer. As to UKIPs stance on climate change, they clearly state it is changing, can you supply the link to your information so I can pass it to them. Do you have pictures of the Pixies responsible? Now taxation, Osbourne has been very clear that he intends to raise it, including several new green taxes. He does however intend to cut income tax. (never thought I would end up defending the Tories for pragmatic and reality based European policy but they do know the EU is all they have ho hum)

Well lets look at the last referendum the UK had on Europe as I understand it was on the back of cheap milk, bacon, beef, mainly cheap food and as a lot of people had been in the last war they had very strong memories of food shortages so they said yes and we were in. But as I watched a documentry on the BBC about the life of a farming family who had videoed themselves over three generations, I saw on what happened on the tv when we joined the common market a flood of European apples, beef, milk etc came into this country and as a result we saw farmers and growers go out of business. However if we had another chance to vote I get the impression it would be a NO vote but UKIP I don't think would be able to take us out of Europe as they have givern me the impression of lets line our pockets ? Well have you seen on how one is treated in the EU Parliment with its plush surroundings and privliages ? Any human that has come into that sort of living would find it hard to give up ? Just look at the Kinnocks ( Neil and Glenis ) multimillionairs now thanks to the EU tax payers. As for climate change then how come according to the satellites that record our Earths atmosphere temperature have recorded a 3-4degree drop ? As for the sea temperature increases thus the polar ice caps melting then why are some scientists are starting to say that it is due to volcanic activity under our oceans and if this is the case then theres nothing that any one can do about it ?. As for Cameron to say income taxes down ? How can he do it when the Lisbon treaty say's that taxes have to be harmonised across Europe ?.

bb, i agree with you entirely about all the daft rules that the eu thrust on us.

problem is, the uk civil servants are clueless in how to deal with them. they are told to jump, and their answer is "how high" and then we will jump a little bit more to gold plate it and make us "superior" because we are british.

the french know exactly how to work the system, ignoring rules and going to court over it.

the french peasant, unlike the british one , is alive and well, and using peasant cunning to put france first.

the eu should be about free trade, no more.

as for revolution, the uk is heading for one like an express train.

we have now had 30 continuous years of tory rule in britain.

the electorate voted labour in 1997, but they got a tory administration, which didnt roll back the right and benefit the left.

now we face a dozen more years of tory rule, and the working classes have not had a look in, apart from the minimum wage.

property tycoons, landlords and agents, bankers stockbrokers, are all partying on at the taxpayers expense, while your average plumber/brickie/etc is on the dole.

i dont think they will put up with it, and when the tories cut the handouts to the leisure classes, they wil take to the streets, to defend their right to stay in bed and get paid for it.

its going to be ugly.

regerttably scotland is no different, and will go the same way, independence cannot alleviate the new labour legacy of ruination.