I will undoubtedly step on a few more toes, but that seems to be my style lately.  I never cease to be amazed at how anything that benefits a particular individual(like your SFP, or my crop insurance subsidy) is generally just fine with that individual, but anything that benefits a number of people and perhaps not that individual is socialism.  We are being bombarded with that term over here right now with regard to Obama's health care bill, farmers who would scream bloody murder if the government took away their DP or crop insurance subsidy holler because the government might help someone else with their health care costs. 

If you have a fire at your house Malcolm, you will probably call the fire department....and they will come and not charge you(at least they won't here) because you pay taxes to support them...really, that is rather socialist, very few people ever have a house burn down, and many that do are the root cause of it through carelessness, perhaps fire service should be for profit??  What about the ambulance, what about the roads, what about the schools??  Do you want to give up your NHS Malcolm and pay $500-$600 a month or more for health insurance like a lot of us do over here(or go without it and lose your farm when you have a major illness)??  Your NHS is darned sure socialist.  You don't have to totally be one way or another in life, at least not in my book.  Can't you believe in making money, and at the same time believe in keeping the field fair and level?

This is exactly the same rhetoric used to inject corporate farming into our lives..."they're just like us, we are all entrepeneurs".   Supposedly both the UK and the US are democracies.  The poll is running 60/40 against the dairy, it isn't scientific and might be completely opposite of what an actual vote would return, but, if that is a true representation, where does the word democracy fit in compared to socialism and capitalism?  What word trumps what theory?  Is capitalism more important than democracy, or vice versa?

I had a look at the dairy section of your NFU website.  It says there are 13500 dairy farmers in Britain, milking 1.6 million cows, I make that out to be 118 cows per farm.  What I don't get is what is so magical to some people about protecting the rights of a few investors to build this farm, why wouldn't you be more interested in protecting the majority who have already made an investment, and are out there everyday doing the work themselves?

I think the bottom line is you have your laws and if this dairy is all up to snuff and within the law, I suppose there is no alternative but to step aside and let it be built.  In our case in this nation,we had laws against corporate ownership of livestock in some farm states, the corporates managed to get farmers to side with them in getting them overturned.  That was the dumbest thing that could have ever happened.  Whatever your beliefs, why on earth would you want to help cut your own throat?

2008 and 2009 should have proven to everyone everywhere there is nothing magical about big business, some of the wealthiest and supposedly smartest people in the world had to be bailed out by taxpayers.  I may be wrong in my opposition to giant corporate farms, but I don't know that I am a backward thinker, are all 60% who voted "no"  in this poll backward thinkers and socialists?  What about simply thinking about your own family, where does that fit in?

If the UK really needs the milk from 8100 more cows, I would lots rather see them divided among the 13500 dairies in the UK, rather than housed on 22 acres in Lincolnshire, but it isn't my country and it isn't my fight.  All I know is when I look around my own country today, and the immediate area I live in, and compare the quality of life, the schools, everything to the way it was 20 years ago, life was better here when the wealth was divided more equally and we didn't have mega farms.  I heard today at noon the USA may get our credit rating cut, the amount of GNP needed to service our debt is eclipsed by only one other triple A rated nation...the UK.  It's kind of funny, I am a backward thinking crap talking farmer, more of a talker than a doer I am told here, however I have managed to pay my bills, yet we have two governments run by some of the smartest people in the world(they think) about to get their credit rating slashed.  Do you think maybe the little guys paying the taxes(and doing the majority of the grunt work) ought to get a break once in a while too, or is that just too socialist?  It appears to me that no matter the "ism" you subscribe to, in a democracy majority opinion should rule.

Step away KF! I appreciate the thought that has gone into your extensive response but what is making my head hurt is that subsidy/support/welfare/tariffs/taxes/licences/incentives/grants/concessions/protectionism and all the other tools and devices that administrations come up with to ensure so called 'fair play' don't work very well either and the true cost of these systems is much higher both in monetary terms and in there negative effects to society as a whole.

Indeed you have pointed many of these frailities out to us in your post.

Where are the 13500 dairy farmers in the UK saying what your saying that they should have the right to add a few more cows to their herds? They are not (at least I am not aware of) forming a march of protest on London, organising a special marketing campaign to champion family farmed milk and its value on a much larger scale to society and the environment of their many thousands to supply milk and dairy products over one jumbo herd of industrial milk producers?

With voter turnout at a paltry 40%'ish over here in the UK, the ruling party appears to be Apathy, which is I guess another side of democracy which is basically saying we kinda of like being told what to do, how to think and behave because if the worse comes to the worst the system will come to our rescue and if the system doesn't a charity will.

Most of the family farmer friendly organisations with the constitution to support the small(er) farmer seem to have been nobbled by corporate interests to allow widespread adoption of large format farming whose customers want produce with a 'standard' specification. Hopefully someone will post differently?

Equally I do know of models that counter the corporation farms and it comes from the community itself that just say's enough is enough and decides to operate a different model that invests in and supports well run, technically efficent local family farms. They are not charities by any stretch of the imagination but they are 'more than profit' supporters who recognise that value added is more than the unit price of the commodity sold and sometimes the cost can't be easily measured in the first place but it has a community value worth protecting. 

Lazyfarmer,

I applaud what you do. Your point is what exactly?

Again, well said KF, you are spot on.

Big businesses come and go, but the family farm remains. Tough, resilient, and immune to being conned by smart ass people.

Near me is one of the first feedlots built in britain. it was built to fatten cattle on cheap barley in about 1970. 1000 head, on slats, all automated.

It worked for about 6 yrs, but barley got too dear, and they found out grass fattening was cheaper. In the 1976 drought the water supply dried up, and then they sucked a small loch dry. Just when they were about to cart water in by tanker, the rain came.

It was never stocked fully again, and is now full of used cars.

i rest my case

up the rams:

Lazyfarmer,

I applaud what you do. Your point is what exactly?

sorry i thought you were asking for practical ideas - my mistake.

But what i wrote would reduce the average producers costs by 6p a litre and give mr average a chance of a life outside of the daily routine.

calve half the herds in the spring half in the autumn everybodies happy. cost of production would then be below world prices so we would not be dominated so much by the supermarkets  and we would all be able to compete withe "super daires" simple

lazy

Glasshouse,

You learn from your mistakes, it's called the human condition. You are hovering like a vulture, wanting Nocton to fail. That says more about you than it does about them.

Lazyfarmer,

Which make of gun do you propose to hold to my head to make me calve in spring/autumn? There are 2 fatal flaws in your plan. The first is mass acceptance by dairy farmers ha ha ha. The second is calving slippage. In the last Derbyshire NMR records, only one of the top 30 herds had a CI of less than 400 days. A better idea would be self-imposed quotas. We all sign up to the principle of producing no more than national demand.

Look out dinosaurs, the asteroid is about to hit. Start evolving now.

top by what measure yeild? when has yeild ever had anything to do with profit.

we don't produce national demand.

quotas don't work they stifle enterprise

wether farmers choose to except my idea is up to them what i don't understand is why so much of the industry isn't even curious as to what block calvers are achieving as it is clearly the most profitable part of the industry.

lazy

up the rams, i dont think it is me who is the dinosaur.

nocton will fail, not if , but when.

where is their water to come from? what will be the level of chemical residue in the milk from eating all that highly sprayed veg?

 I reckon greenth, the 13500 dairy farmers, especially the smaller ones, are on their farms milking their cows, trying to sort out what they think and wondering if anyone even cares what they think.  I also reckon more than one is fearful of speaking their mind because they hate to be labeled as being in the way of progress.  There must be about 40% of them that think this is a good idea, if the poll is anything to go by.

Most of last year I read what terrible shape the dairy industry was in the UK due to low milk prices......low prices would indicate plenty of milk...what has changed? 

glasshouse:

nocton will fail, not if , but when.

I am with KF and glasshouse on this in that Nocton will fail in the long run just as everything else fails in the long run. (the laws of entropy means that everything will fail after a time) The question then becomes, what kind of life do we want for the short and medium term. Do we want a world in which the top twenty per cent take eighty per cent of the 'power and the glory,' or do we want to share it around a bit between, in this case, 13500 dairy farmers?

Having said this, does not make me a socialist, anymore than having a hernia treated by private medical help makes Gordon Brown a conservative. It just makes both of us pragmatic within a set of boundaries set somewhere between the unbridled authoritarianism of public ownership, and the despotism of the free market. 

kansasfarmer:

There must be about 40% of them that think this is a good idea, if the poll is anything to go by.

The wonderful thing about the poll is you can dig in behind the polling and see where the votes were logged from.

By observation on the google maps we can deduce for example out of the 555 cast two votes came from Kansas and other places around the globe, though mainly from these sceptred Isles.

By zooming down we can have a good old nose around. Interesting views!!!!

Whether the business fails will be because it will get loads of bad reportage in the media - despite however well the cows are cared for.  And Josie Public will not like the idea at all of the cows being housed for most of the time and then we will have something like we have had with eggs from caged hens - the milk will become something banned by the veggie brigade.  Unfortunately, along with that will come the impression that all milk is produced like that in this country and it will do every uk milk producer harm. IMHO

what is IMHO for thickos like me?

glasshouse:

what is IMHO for thickos like me?

lazy farmer:

glasshouse:

what is IMHO for thickos like me?

In My Honest Opinion

Glasshouse

 Tha water will come from a borehole near The River Witham, and presumably, there are rules and regs. concerning the veg. residue. Still, you obviously know best. So, British dairy farming is dominated by doom and gloom, envy and jealousy. No change there, then.

Don't look too hard Motley, the red dot that I suppose is my no vote is not very near my farm....sorry to disappoint you.  I probably should not have voted, it would be interesting to know how just dairy farmers in the UK feel about it, because I imagine there is more than one vote cast by folks not farming. 

Up the rams, you seem very good at being insulting and telling people they have no right to comment, and how many words they have wasted, other than that you haven't put forth any good reasons to be for this dairy.  It also seems a little ridiculous for you to be so insulting to those not for it, when none of us have any say ultimately over what is done.  A forum is a place to put forth opinions, we aren't the House of Commons.  You are a dairy farmer, I am honestly interested in knowing more about your dairy and how you feel about this, and how it will effect your business, I am also interested in reading what other dairy farmers think about it, pro or con.  My family never dairy farmed, but I was amazed at how quickly all the local guys around us folded when the 5000+ milking herds became the norm.

This one dairy by itself will not kill small farmers.  It is the trend that would worry me if I were a UK dairy farmer. It will be another 50 years before the real impact of industrialized livestock farming on farmers will be fully known.  By then I'll be dead.

 It is always interesting to revisit FWI and to see why it sporned so many more actual farmer based websites. Now apparently the home of sociologists wishing to impart wisdom regarding the pros of a middle class or the merits of capitalism. All blissfully apparently unaware of the realities of the either the Nocton Estate or farming in general. Though through the vicarious medium of the web can enjoy making prognostications on Nocton.

It has never failed in any enterprise that it started to build from the crisp industry to liquid sugar production. That it had detractors in the past on setting these up yes. But time proved it was correct. As equally time has proven the failure of those who wish to impose limits upon entrepreneurs be that within so called democratic societies or within communist societies.

no doubt along with the reality of importing milk from 1000 + dairy units on mainland Europe. Or eggs from battery units there or pork meat from tethered sows. Or any manner of things banned in UK. Joe public gives quite rightly not a toss. And quite rightly the responsibility for UK cheap ( which is what it is otherwise why do we go on shopping trips for food there) IS OUR THANKS TO THE SUPERMARKETS.

Whilst quite rightly banging your drum for UK produced food, until you can convince the buyer to pay more or prevent imports all you have done is shot yourself in the foot.

Tiza, do you work for tescos?

what is "sporned"

kansasfarmer:

it would be interesting to know how just dairy farmers in the UK feel about it

Yes KF it would be very interesting to hear more from the 13500 UK dairy farmers but as you said in your previous post they are to busy milking and worrying about being seen as over critical of their udder brothers.

It would appear you are suggesting that there needs to be a cap on just how big a unit can be and still qualify as a small farm where the owner is the principal investor who spends the majority of their working hours producing the primary outputs and that this scale of operation needs to be protected from unfair practices which favour large format units where the investment is more corporate.

If this is the case what is the support for this kind of model in the US? Is there a lobbying process by which organisations like the National Farmers Organisation can make their case for the protection of the family farm?

I note that from the NFO'S latest newsletter that 2,185 dairy farmers quit the business last year some as a result of the cow removal program operating under the Cooperatives Working Together (CWT) self-help plan and that across 23 states milk was not only down in production terms the price was still to low. The profits of Dean Foods and Nestles however were healthy.

It appears that it is the same the whole world over!

just reading up on nocton estate, i see that all the tenant farmers were cleared off after dennis bought it in 1919. he only lasted 17 yrs and sold out in 1936 to smiths crisps.

Kansasfarmer,

A straight question deserves a straight answer. It is not so much that I am for this dairy, more that I am repelled by the attitudes of those against it. The people behind it have, I think, made money by working hard and smart, and this is their take on the current situation. If they have done their homework, and honestly think they can make it work, who am I to argue? Will pulling them down make my life any better? No. If they can "walk it like they talk it" on cow welfare and carbon footprint, better still. I can think of at least 2 ways in which the 100 cow man like me can benefit. Firstly, the volume of milk will help keep processing at critical mass. Secondly, an enterprise on this scale will be able to section off a smaller "Test herd", that can try out new techniques from which both the main herd, and the rest of us, can benefit. In this respect, they can do the job that the now defunct experimental husbandry farms used to do.

As for my own take on the situation, I am about to lose a father and a worker. I am 50 next year, and have 3 daughters. I have maybe 20 years of work left in me. The cost of 2 migrant workers for that period is £600,000 each. I can manage with 1 worker if I get a robot milker, which I expect to get for rather less than £600,000, and still have some change to spend on more high tech labour saving kit. As they say on your side of the pond, it's a slam dunk. Also, if I am serious about persuading one of my daughters to take over, parlour milking is a difficult sell. I have 15 years, effectively, to create a high tech woman friendly system. By the way, did you ever watch "Jericho"? Cracking series IMHO, but how fairly did it portray Kansas?

For the rest of you, I am aiming to get Nocton dairies to speak to my branch (Derby) of the NFU. Watch this space.

my objection to this dairy is really in 3 parts.

part 1 is that these mega enterprises are only possible where large tracts of freehold land are available thanks to previous or recent clearance of tenants.

part 2 these big enterprises sooner or later end up being run by accountants, who make a real cod of it. Witness what happened to the cws dairies when the suits took charge.

part3 it will be a  public relations disaster for farming and the environment.

glasshouse,

 My objections to your objections.

Part 1-Spurious

Part 2-Wishful thinking.

Part 3-Let's try to convert them then. Sun and Mail readers do not dictate farming policy.