Any one putting money on which way this will go ?. badly want historic myself, much cleverer money is now leaning towards regional.!! The lawyers are gutted and so am I. The powefull spud / veg lobby is swaying opinion I fear.

Timothy My money would be on a fudge, neither one nor the other. I think you are wrong about "the powerful spud/veg lobby", I don't think the entire farming community counts for much but Mrs Beckett has got us arguing amongst ourselves, divide and rule, so fail to notice the whole deal is bad for UK farming. Jim Webster writes an excellent piece in today's Farmers Guardian listing some of the organisations with more political clout than any of the farming ones. Like me he would be better off in the short term under historic payments but think it would be short sighted. He likens Single Farm Payments to his slurry system putting it "into one big pit for easy access. .. When the next EU funding crisis hits there will be a pot of money just sitting there, waiting to fill that irritating gap between income and expenditure. Let us wipe the muck off the crystal ball .. no matter how the SFP is divided up I wager three Limousin bull calves to a red Hereford heifer that the name of the largest recipient will be in the paper before he even gets the cheque. .. vast sums paid out to those who are no longer farming .. with elections coming up (and in Europe there is always someone with elections coming up) a minister will say this is scandalous/unsustainable/iniquitous .. rather than bickering like a bunch of drunks who have just found a £10 note in a bar we really ought to work out a way of keeping this money in the industry in a way that does most good to those who are actually contributing to taking the industry forward"

Tom I totally agree it will be a combination of both, (fudge)for both arable plus livestock. Heres a thought re veg/pot lobby, a)Regional=they could pay higher rents, b)Historical= combinable boys could offer cheaper rents to the veg/pot growers, This legislation/money shareing will make for exciting times for the forward thinking businessmen within our industry!! Regards Richard Hammond

I go for historic, why should I, on an all cereal heavy land farm start subsidising vining pea and veg growers on their boys land?. They presumably managed to show a good profit before so whats changed?

Richard, the case rests right there, I just had this all over in the pub, and this is the nub of the argument. for the vast majority very little has changed since the reference period. People who grew high risk unsubsidised crops then did so because they had the land and it was on average more profitable to do so, so why should they now share my payment, when I still dont have ground suitable for spuds, beet, veg etc and they mostly stll do ?? The argument where livestock claims are concerned is even more iniquitous, speaking as someone who has claimed a lot of BSPS in the 3 golden years, and really doesnt want to share that with anyone else.

What you fail to realise is that many of these other crops are 1. no more profitable than corn 2. can be grown anywhere ie. borage 3. by growing these alternative crops growers are helping to ease the pressure on your corn markets 4. you will now be able to grow these crops and still claim your sfp thus giving us no chance of competing in the crops that we have developed 6. decoupling is supposed to be about giving farmers the chance to diversify into other crops to lessen the presure on corn markets ie to grow those crops we developed. This does not seem very fair especially when you look at your last comment about holding on to your livestock payments

Stephen I still cannot grow potatoes/ sugar beet/ vining peas/ veg (and have seen enough of borage over the hedge!)...the soil has not and will not change, why did you grow these crops if you didnt make any money out of them?.. I dont believe you, if that was the case you would have had the same cropping as me and been on "my side". Nothing will change, you will still grow "your" crops and i will grow mine, as it would be if IACS was to be here for another 10 years

Sorry Richard - But if you have never grown potatoes I'm affriad you have little or no concept of the art of loosing money ! If most spud growers had wheat yielding 0.5t/ac through the reference years most would have been a lot better off than growing the potatoes. Remember the autumn of 2000 for example - getting your wheat in was difficult and costly in all that wet weather, you should have had a go a getting spuds out !! or how much wheat did you dig a hole for and burry last year ? Potatoes stoped being a BIG money crop way back when the concept of the contract was developed ! In my opinion the only winner from the historical basis will be the legal men and land agents. In our area so much has changed in the last 5 years with farmers going out of crops such as potatoes etc. and farms merging, retiring or just getting out. Sorting out historical entitlement would be a nightmare for lots of people. I think the historical basis would probabaly make me better off than regional but if they go this way what is the point it wouldn't achieve the aim of decoupling as little would change - we may as well just stick with IACS it comes to pretty much the same thing.

Defra/Government can't win on this one because they can not make every farmer happy and whoever loses out will automatically complain as is human nature. Who'd volunteer to sort this one out, I mean your disagreeing with each other already because your only interested in making sure what you do doesn't lose out. We could do with understanding the big picture and how we fit in it.

Richard you have said it yourself you would not grow borage but if wheat goes back to 50 or less you will think different especially if you will still get your SFP. Yes we grew other crops to make a profit just like your aim most of them we made no more than a good crop of wheat and often less. if veg was so profitable why have so many moved out quite often through bankruptcy

Is there a big picture or does degressivity in 2007 mean we are all arguing over short term fixes?

I think that there is a bigger picture. If you don't get a good price for what you produce that means there is already enough of it around, If decoupling is land based and you get the average of the suggested base years (2000 - 2001) then I think those currently farming for subsidy will take the money and sit back. There will then be less on the market and the price will rise. Those who produce good produce will be better rewarded for their efforts.

Clive, in autumn 2000 i did all the culitations for sowing wheat that never got drilled on about 30% of the farm.. ended up with 50% setaside. Why do you and others continue with veg etc if it does not pay a fortune every so often at least?, you have the tackle to sow wheat and any other crop at a days notice, i have chopped in and out of beans, barley and linseed in my time. If it goes historic i will swap my clay for your potato growing land acre for acre.. I can grow wheat that much cheaper on that sort of land

Stephen. Say i wanted to grow borage.. you may in future need say £500/t to make it pay on your zero subsidy land, i for one on my £80 (eg) subsidy land will also want £500/t, ok i am greedy, but i am not going to give the "land subsidy" to the buyer. As i have just told clive... If it goes historic i will swap my clay for your potato growing type land acre for acre.. I can grow wheat that much cheaper on that sort of land First come first served!

Am I in the right place ? is this the que for swapping small fields of difficult land infested with granite boulders for potatoe / beet/ veg land acre for acre.Ok Richard you are first, but I am next, wonder how many takers we will have?? Or will they perhaps decide to keep that top quality land, and take a chance on spuds,(doesnt look too bad this year !) and collect a share of my and your iacs on the spud crop. Might as well as its simply not an option for me to compete , after all l dont have any land of remotely root crop quality.

Richard We no longer grow spuds - gave that up not long after autumn 2000! we also drilled next to no wheat that year and had over 100ac of spuds left in the ground. Problem with crops like potatoes etc. is that a farms fixed cost structure has to be so much higher than a combinable crop farm. There is no getting away from needing lots of smaller tractors, labour and loads of expensive specilist kit /storage etc. Now we are just combinable crops the savings are huge - I can use HP and big kit and very little labour to get big areas done very efficiently. It's easy to swap in and out of various combinable crops but with spuds or veg your either in or out for good. PS. are you sure about the land swapping offer ? My old potato land is easy working etc. but I doubt that I will ever be joining the 15t club !

Hi Richard lets talk further on this swapping idea where are you I have 600 acres of blowing breck Good house in south Norfolk what have you to offer

Stephen I too have 600 acres! 4 bed house, grain storage for all produce, and well bodied land. (clay on a potters wheel type) A few tips to get you started; You will not have access to fields between oct 12 and march 20 in an average year. (if you get rained off with a field worked down, its setaside) 5 furrow ploughs take min 200 Hp to pull (if wet and tyres wont clean, call it setaside) Grass weeds will be 75% controlled at a cost of £40 acre (dont worry, this is usually in the spring as autumn spraying is usually impossible) All fields flood during wet winters..expect 10% loss The land drains are getting to the end of there life (25 years).. dont forget to fill the trenches with gravel when you replace. Its all below sea level but am sure the rising sea levels is scaremongering. On the plus side; No more is being lost as the tile factory is all concrete products now. (but you can sell some for lining reservoirs) When its dry you can sit back and relax, there is no way you will make a seedbed. When its wet you can sit back and relax, there is no way you will make a seedbed. And in a perfect year it will produce 3.5T/acre of wheat no problem. . Your turn!

Why not have the payment set on your icas application for the year 2003. The historic is a difficult one because of land transfers and the effects of foot and mouth,regional is difficult because land types (lfa and non lfa) and the effects of stocking densities

Timothy Seems we have the solution to keep everyone happy here.. i will email Defra now!

I wondered how you are so quick to respond I see you are on your well deserved 6 month annual holiday (oct 12 -march 20th) I dont think you would adjust well to a working farm where we rarely see a day off lifting roots all autumn and ridging destoning etc from the end of december. then we start drilling in January during the rest of the year between spraying for blight every other day we occupy ourselves with a game called irrigation. I dont know what you wopuld think of it but it starts at 4 in the morning after 2 dry days and goes on till October. It seems to me that you dont need SFP at all just a part time job. Signed with tongue firmly in cheek Stephen Collett

Richard and Stephen, There ,there, poor dear boys, what can I recommend? Would Smithfield and a spot of therapy (shopping with the wife?) be an option? Jack Caley.

Seems the pundits were right when they said that MTR would set farmer against farmer !!

Not at all clive!, we are doing a straight swap and we will both be happy... its going to be great min tilling with a grey fergie and a set of chain harrows!

No smithfield this year, so no help there... that wouldnt be shopping in shops would it? aggghhh!.. .. cant get over the drilling in january...gosh i havent lived!