Does anyone run a tsa/mxu 135 with a  3m front and 3m rear mo co? does it have enough power? I could do with adding a front mower to increase output but dont justify having a 160hp + sitting around the rest of the year. ideally id hav a new jd or fendt 818 but cost restricts me! whats ur general opinion of the cnh tractors? is 50k worth having on them? i hear they only do about 6k faster than the 40k box?  

I think you'll find that power will be a bit short, as ideally to drive a mo/co comfortably you will want 10hp/per foot of cut (3m being 10'6 x 2 you'd want 200hp), have you considered comprimising? 2.8m cut out front and a 2.5m on the back, i'd be confident a 135 would handle that, but consider the kind of gass you are cutting, if its likely to be heavy first cut - ie once a year you are as well off to look at higher power, but if you make 2/3 cuts of light cuts of grass you, i'd imagine you'll be satisfied, also consider mower choice, some are easier to drive that others - contra-rotating blades as seen on the new Vicon mowers reduce power requiremrnt as do more blades per disc!!

The TSA/MXU have had some teething troubles, but they seem to be put right now, i recently looked at an MXU135 pro/multicontroller - with the CVX style armrest controller, a much better tractor to use and the finish/build quality has improved vastly over the early 03/04 models, - 50k is a definete advantage, even if it does only do 46/7k, as these tractors are specc'd with this gear in a bid to aid efficiency - not win races!!

I cut around 300 acre of my own silage, 2 main cuts but some heavy single cuts mid summer plus 800acre of contract work that varies from light organic crops and 2nd cuts to heavy 1st cuts and people who only take 1 cut, some steepish fields to. I have a 4032kv just now and I dont think customers would want the bouts to be any less than 3m for baling, otherwise 2 smaller mounted mowers would be an option. I had wondered if using a front mower on its own would be any advantage as I could cut heavy crops from 1 side of the field like a centre pivot without the hassle of shifting the mower every headland, then when cuting lighter crops I could take both mowers and make max use off time and tractor. I know of a jd 6920s that runs 2 3m kv but iv never seen it working. just out off interest would a mounted rear mower perform as well at high forward speeds as a trailed? I saw a prototype vicon 3m trailed mower this summer, It looked v impressive, built to last.

Do you mean they run at that speed at lower rev's? I dont mind the speed so much aslong as its reflected in the price!

No, the mower still runs at rated speed, but there is a larger cutting surface area as a third blade is used. So in theory the mower is doing the same work but with 50% cutting edges. JF used  similar idea in years ago on their trailed drum mowers, the more blades per drum etc and this did amount to a higher workrate, they claimed you could mow at speeds of 20kph - something which is not feasible in most fields, however the theory is there.

The fact that you have a mounted mower would make little odds on output, however it's user preference, i personally would not use a mounted mower but i know people who would argue the other way around. if you were looking to save time a 3m mower with centre pivot mower should save 15% in time - based on the reversible plough principle.

With Regards to the JD, i wouldn't doubt that this machine could power 2 3m units, If the 6920s is well capable, the TSA would not be far behind, it's hard to know, But the kind off grass we'd be cutting you couldn't dream of powering a 3m mower conditioner with any less than 120hp.

For 1100acres a year, a 3m trailer mower really should have enough output, however i don't know what your yearly workload is, and maybe time is at a premium, the truth is you won't know what suits you until you try it.

Sorry i meant the 50k tractor, does it run at lower revs when its at 50k?

Its more the time factor thats pushing me to go for higher output. I work the wraper to for 7500bales also have cows and sheep to look after to so the less time i can spend per acre the better, the other problem is cutting infront of a sp forager, the job consists of 2 goes over 100acres but all the fields are under 8acres and none are square! I was kean on a centre pivot when we changed before this season but I couldnt get a demo and I was lead to believe that they take so long to shift from side to side they arent worth the extra cash. Have you seen one working?

The 6920s is ment to be ok on flat ground but struggles uphill, I thought the boost on the cnh tractor would bring it to 168hp, 8hp more than the jd?

I had a shot of an mx 110 this year after a break down, I had it mowing a heavy flat crop 1day it was hardly fit to keep going at 3mph, i dont know if the particular tractor was gutless or if the crop was that much heavier than anything id cut with our 6620or mx135 before. I suppose it would be jobs like that where id have to use just 1 mower.  I wonder how it works out between cutting double the width at half the speed but being able to cut from 1 side, or just going as hard as you can sit in the seat with 1 mower! The lifespan of the mowers are bound to be greatly extended!

What outfit do you run yourself?

No, the TSA still runs at rated speed when at 50kph, unlike the TVT which will get to 50k then back off to 1850rpm to save fuel on the road.

We are in pretty much the same situation as yourself, small fields and yards dictate a maximum machine size no bigger than 135hp! and 14ft/10ton silage trailers as we simply wouldn't get in or out of most places.

The kuhn centre pivot machines i've seen working we more than adequate when slewing on the headlands, it may well be a hydaulic problem on the tractor which limited how quickly it went across (spool flow turned down?) as the drawbar cylinders are big and take quite a lot of filling. Like i say, the Kuhn machine's i have sen working have been fine, and if nothing else they make for a nicer swath as you have no dead heading where you have opened lands, because even the best tractor drivers will get the occasional "V" where swaths meet, the centre pivot - if used correctly eliminates this.

I'd doubt whether the extra 8 hp would make a great deal of difference with regards to its ability to drive the mowers, the biggest problem is that modern machine manufacturers all take power measurements at different standards/ratings JD generally give an engine power figure for the basic engine on a test bench - no water pump, alternator or AirCon, these are all items which knock power. I'm sure CNH would tell you that the TSA is capable of power these two machines, i'd be more sceptical - sticking to my 10hp/ft ratio. It may be worth waiting for the NH T7000 series in late january, however as power output on tractors goes up, so does the price!!

MX110 or MXU110? - the MXU should have had powerboost facilites, and i'd be suprised if it lacked power. I suppose you're right, cutting the same area with 2 mowers would halve the workload put apon them, and should prevent wear, and last longer!!

I don't cut much grass, we only have a small silage contracting business, about 1200acres a year - give or take a bit, but we mow with a New Holland TS110A ultra and a 2.5m Kuhn mower with grouper, which is ideal for narrow gateways and awkward sized fields.

No it was a 4yr old mx, im sure it was in need of a good service, it would die so much in places I was having to dip the clutch lo let the revs build up! Will the T7000 have power boost like the tsa? Thats what I like about the tsa, it would save wasting a big tractor on a 4furrow, 3metre drill and other light tasks although i suppose the boost still kcks in on light pto tasks ie raking and fert spreading? If I could get a tractor with a variable boost from 110hp up to 180 it would be ideal! Shut it right down to work the hay bob and right up for mowing etc.

I wouldn't be suprised if an MX110 struggled in heavy going with a 10ft mower - which kind of answers your question with regards to power requirements for 2 3m mowers, perhaps a service would have been a help, but i think the tractor was a little short of power for the operation, those older MX's use a bosch inline pump which has an internal diaphragm that fails, that reduces power by about 25% so that may well have been part of the issue.

The T7000 will have power boost facilites - as they will all be fitted with a common rail Tier 3 engine, which lends itself to powerboost operation - as explained above.  Boost only kicks in and out as and when it is req'd - operations like raking or wrapping or even round baling are unlikley to call on it. it is also proportional, so you will only get a few hp at a time.

Variable boost is what we already have, the problem with such a large variation in power as you describe above is that what class does the tractor sit in? will it be a light tractor with 180hp available? and then we have issues like will the gearbox and pto pack stand up to that kind of power? - in a light tractor it won't, that is why you build a heavy tractor, but then why bother going down to 110hp? as it will be severly underpowered!! - i believe this is what they call a vicious circle.

I hear people say they have chipped TM190s up to 270+hp, which i find very hard to believe for the reasons above, good luck to those who try it!!

The TSA model is as close as we will ever see to a lightweight high powered tractor.

I see your point!

I didnt realise the boost on the tsa worked like that, I thought it was on with the pto and in top gear. or off otherwise. so much the better your way though. Do u notice it disapear when lugging up a hill and the tractor starts to die does it get down so far the boost cuts off and then your knackerd?

I know a lad with 2 vicon 3meter mowers on a 6610 jd! its screwed up to 170hp but i dont know how it survives!

I had a hired mx135 2 summers ago, it was opened up to 160hp, it was great on the mower, wouldnt die anywhere, it took its toll though as it went through 2 sets of conditioner belts on our then khun 303ygl mower.

Never had the boost cut out, and it shouldn't either, as long as the parameters for powerboost are satisfied powerboost will remain active, however even with powerboost active, the implement's requirement for power may be greater than what the tractor can produce, causing it to die off, but as long as a suffient "pull" is on the tractor, it should stay in powerboost all day long.

Now we are breaching the subject of "tweaking" tractors, something always results in trouble, thankfully the JD i know little about, but a 6910s is only rated to 160hp and for a 6610 to be screwed up to that power i think you may be encroaching on dangerous territory.

The MX135 screwed up is a ticking time-bomb, i know these tractors fairly well, and know their problems too! one of the biggest being gearboxes, burnt out clutch packs and sheared crown wheel and pinions! whacking extra power into those tractors will always end in tears, The MX150 is a much heavier built tractor and will take a certain "tweak", but 135s are at their limit where they are.

I totally aggree on the tweaking subject, its not something we would do.  Our 135 blew its clutch packs this summer, hence the replacement 110. the 135 we had on hire the year before was like that when it came to us and we didnt complain.

Have you driven any mx135s that bounce on the road? I think ours may just be the tyres which are about 50%worn and Id change them if I was sure they are whats wrong. It goodyears thats on it and Id rather michelins but what if its the wheel thats buggered! The 135 we had hired was the same infact alot worse, over 20mph and it felt like u were crossing tattie fields! when we bought the current one I took it 4 a test run on the road and it seamed good but its a different story with a trailer or a light implement behind it. With just the tractor or when you have something heavy like the drill or plough it rides much smoother. Iv tried different tyre pressures with no success.

The lack of front axle suspension is the problem, any old MX - 100c through to 170 suffered with pitch, regardless of tyres, you can alleviate the situation by taking unnecessary weight off the front and setting the tyre pressures just below normal, this will help, but won't solve the problem. The front axle which was fitted to these tractors was a carraro unit dubbed "IFS" which in my opinion is one of the best front axle suspension systems available, on current models, such as the TSA use a different shared NH axle.

Compare the two tractors if you have spec sheets between the MXU135 and the MX135, kerb weights and distribution of weight across the chassis is very different which makes an immediate difference to stability of the tractor, for example a older style NH TS115 was not available with suspension, however it was particularly well balanced and didn't really need it!

Also if you have problems towing trailers, do they have sprung drawbars? (redrock engineering make the smoothest i've used) they make a big difference on stability, and what kind of running gear are they? single axle? if they are tandem rocking bogie axles they are best for work under 40kp, anything above and ideally leaf springs or parabolic suspension.

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Jock, try two lely mowers, we bought a 3 metre mounted rear mower from lely to back up our JD 1360, it gave us a big shock at how easy it was to drive compared to the 1360,  12 months later we added a front mower to it and my 716 fendt  literally plays with them, with a dry bed they just do not sap power, also the bed is in sections and damage is easily put right in very little time, they are light and very nice to use, earlier Optimo models struggled with flat grass but a new disc design on Splendimo models has put this right, lely have demonstrated these mowers as a triple 9 metre combination on an mxu 135 hope this helps. 

Jock, just noticed your question on mounted verses trailed, for years we ran trailed mowers because they were superior on rough ground so output was better all round, nowadays mounted have caught up and their perfomance in my opinion is superb, whether they will survive as long as a trailed remains to be seen, but so far so good

Thats all interesting stuff ivor. I take it there is a conditioner on your mowers? I had a kuhn 303ygl with plastic contitioner. I loathed its cutting ability, there werent many types of grass it would cut clean, Im far happier with the kv, the grass starts growing far quicker after the kv as its cut cleaner. I thick the kuhn was better put together in some ways although we had to replace the bed after 3000acres. I dont know anyone with a lely although we run a welger baler which I know is well built. How do you find cornering with the mounted mower and front mower? Does it leave an uncut strip? Maybe I should ask for a demo next year of an mxu 135 with a front mounted lely, Id still be tempted to stay with my trailed mower though! What sort of forward speed do you do in heavy 1st cut silage? 

More and more mower manufacturers are putting research into the design of mounted mowers - centrally mounted suspension arms -pottinger especially are making big in roads on this type of product, i'm yet to see any of them work. but it looks good, maybe the grassland event will show a working demo (grassland event which is right in the middle of the grass harvest season, but maybe enough grass will be down to keep the forager going!)

Front mowers and more basic mounted mowers are always easier to power as they have less complicated drive systems, rear mounted mower use a belt drive, whereas high output tailed machines use gearboxes - especially if equipped with swivel hitch (girodyne on kuhn etc.) plus their physical weight makes them more difficult to pull, add to the fact that they are equipped with rubbish wheels (we have a grouper on our 250g kuhn and the xtra 700kgs over the back wheels does make a differenc and puctures were a regularity until we put wider wheels on it.)

The comment with regard to the kuhn and the plastic conditioner is interesting, the type of conditioner would make no odds on cut quality, but the nylon conditioning tines are "forager friendly" we have steel fingers and comb suspension which does a good conditioning job, but makes a hell of a bang when gos up the spout!

Do the new KV mowers really cut well? the older models were useless - the 338 etc, we went away from them because of this, as well as the fact that everything with a KV badge on it is hard to power, but is generally very well built. Our mower cust particularly well - its the same bed as the JD 1300 mowers, i'm not sure but perhaps your kuhn had a different bed, but i'm suprised to learn of a kuhn that didn't cut well!

The MXU and triple combination, i saw that demo, and it was mowing in a crop of light continental rye grass with mowers that were not equipped with conditioners, i dare say in typical UK and ireland conditions with a conditioner at work i thing the tractor would "sit up and beg", but being a great fan of all things CNH, i would love to be proved wrong!! any takers? i have heard of some mower manufactures bringing out smaller triple combinations - 6.8m to 7.8m, these would be a great addition, as it would be more beneficial to those who have 170-200hp tractors.

Oh well it was the nylon tines that the dealer blamed, they dont create the same vacum as steel tines they said. It was the most frustrating machine as it struggled to cut clean in heavy crops regardless of forward speed, this I didnt mind so much. What really used to annoy me was goin to cut a sort light organic crop, either grass or wholecrop and the mower would just chop up the crop infront of the bed and flaten the standing crop, it would leave strips of almost untouched grass! If it was a decent tall standing crop it cut well.

 Another thing thats better on the kv is the lifespan of the blades, I think they last 50% longer than the kuhn blades. They rarely break or twist with srone contacts.

I dont know anything about the old kv mower, but I find the new 1 easier to drive as you can get 5-10acre more on a tank with the kv. It has 8discs vs the 6 on the kuhn, thats an extra 4 blades and the blades are bigger too. The tin work isnt as good on the kv however as already there are more dents in the kv than there was in the kuhn when it went off, I dont expect the conditioner hood to last much beyond next season before it needs attention.

The kuhns side guards were a disaster to, they changed the design a few times but never got it 100%, It was near on impossible to cut the last bit in a gushet, the cut swath would drag on the side of the mower eventually choking the mower if you didnt stop. The 1st guards wouldnt do this but they left a strip of uncut grass. But the 2nd and 3rd ones we got were worse! We ended up modifying them ourselves. In a heavy flat crop they would drag grass on the offside over the uncut grass making it very hard to pick up. The kv will cut any way you like.

I actually wonder just how important a conditioner is, the nylon tines dont break the steems at all, this never bothered any customers but what they did like was if a crop lay cut in wet weather for a week, the grass out off a steel tined conditioner is totally washed out and colourless whereas from the nylon tines there was still a fair bit off green in the crop. Do the mowers without conditioners leave a swath or does it have to be spread all the time? I just wonder if the cost off runing a conditioner ie fuelwise is worth it?  We like to rake all the grass we can into 30ft swaths for either chopping or baling anyway so if the grass lay spread it wouldnt matter. Maybe these machines would have similar probs as my kuhn in that short crops wouldnt get pulled over the bed.

I don't know a great deal about those mowers so i won't comment and take your word from it, but to be fair it sounds like that kuhn mower you had was a bit of a dog, the older style mowers are great, however the are old, and technology isn't that great, it doesn't float as well as some of the newer mowers.

The condtioner has to make a difference, or else people wouldn't be keen on it, if you always rake up, have you considered mowing and spreading across the full cut of the machine? Vicon HPC is brilliant for quick drying, and it we ever spread the grass, i'd have one, but we always leave in the swath, often 16ft of grass thrown into a swath when the grouper is in use. so drying rarely is an issue, and most of the stuff we cut for bales never leaves the swath and it generally makes ok silage, so the conditioner must make some difference.

The steel tines are aggressive and i see what you mean about the crop being washed out. its actually a very good point, because once the sugars are washed out of the grass, it only has a decent fibre content, which you may as well feed straw for. so perhaps that is a sellign point of nylon tines?

The mower is due a change next year, so perhaps we'll look at KV, may even rock the boat a bit and go up to a 9ft cut!!! - the only problem is, whichever mower we go for it needs to be specced with a grouper. not many manufacturers offer 2.8m/9ft cuts with a grouper, to my knowledge the only one at the moment is krone, and its a non-genuine grouper made by keltec.