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What a heap of crap!

Last post Tue, May 26 2009 10:13 by Peter Wells. 23 replies.
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  • Wed, Oct 5 2005 21:26

    What a heap of crap!

    http://youth4animals.com/hottopics/farming/index2.html

    Anyone fancy countering this pile of b*****ks from the animal rights brigade? Click on the animals at the top for specifics on each farming industry.

     

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  • Wed, Oct 5 2005 22:56 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    Claire

    I have just had a brief look at this and dropped them a line.  I shall let you know what they say in answer to my questions.  I am sure though that others, more knowledgeable than myself will endeavour to refute this - well, your subject title got it right.

    Regards

    Bunny

     

     

  • Thu, Oct 6 2005 8:33 In reply to

    • townie
    • Top 150 Contributor
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    • Joined on Sun, May 22 2005
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    Re: What a heap of crap!

    To be honest, I wouldn't even bother encouraging them with a comment.  Veggie is a religion to these people and there's nothing harder than trying rational debate with the 'converted'.

    You are right, though: the site comprises a lot of misinformation and propoganda but little in the way of accurate hard facts.  Fortunately, I suspect it will mostly be read by those who've already 'seen the light', so I doubt it'll do much harm, at least, not compared to cheap Brazilian imports produced to far worse standards than those 'fluffy bunnies' can imagine.

     

  • Thu, Oct 6 2005 12:37 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    Be careful using the link, I went on (it is a load of crap) but the computer stopped responding after, had trouble rebooting, it may be coincidental but you never know.
  • Thu, Oct 6 2005 13:18 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    It concerns me that this is aimed specifically at young children and was publicised in our local paper. That is how I came across it, we have quite enough misinformation in the classroom without this extra source.
  • Thu, Oct 6 2005 15:05 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    Claire

    You're right, it is a concern that schoolchildren are perhaps being given wrong ideas (on any subject actually).

    I got a reply this morning, polite letter but didn't really answer my query.  Figures are said to be from reputable sources, including Government - however, if I would specify a figure (s) in particular they would let me know what the source of the information is.  Again, I have to say I do not know enough to tackle this - perhaps if someone furnishes me with a specific quoted figure and what they believe to be the actual figure (if any) I can then ask.  Or perhaps they can.

    Townie

    Fluffy bunnies indeed (you know me then)!    You're probably right tho, can't imagine and don't really want to know - it's enough trying to have our children taken proper care of etc.

    I do agree with you though - best left alone.  Don't want this argument to get blown up on the Forum.

    Regards

    Bunny

     

     

  • Thu, Oct 6 2005 16:36 In reply to

    • townie
    • Top 150 Contributor
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    Re: What a heap of crap!

    Bunny,

    (Sorry 'bout the fluffy bunny reference  )

    I think there are a number of possible avenues in responding to this, assuming you want to.  You could go down the figures route, but be aware that in this industry figures are often quite woolly (sorry: another pun) and thus open to various interpretations; the arguments over the meaning of those GM field trial results is a case in point.  Thus playing the numbers game might be a bit counterproductive.

    Another route is to look at the welfare side, which that site seems to emphasise, presumably on the principle that most veggies (and kids) are sentimental about animals in distress.  Well if we are going to exploit animals, there will be welfare issues, but here in the UK we have amongst the highest standards in the world.  By targetting our home industry, they open us up further to imports from far less benign sources of supply - Brazil being the favourite bugbear of the moment.  However on misinformation, they make a big deal, for example, about sheep diesases and health problems.  Do they imagine sheep in the wild (no such thing, but I'll leave that 'till later) are free of disease?  A Sheep may live a decade or more in captivity with the best of care, but in the wild they would be lucky to survive half that time: those diseases aren't man-made creations then there's predation, accident, etc etc.  Perhaps they imagine some animal utopia where no beast is harmed just because man is absent!

    Anyway, for most farmed animals, there is no such thing as 'in the wild'.  We took the wild precursors, such as the European Aurochs, tamed and selectively bred them over centuries - millenia - these are now beasts whose original form (and habitat) has vanished.  They depend upon us for successfull existence in terms of health, nutrition, shelter and so forth.  No doubt some hardy survivors (such as my hill sheep and other 'primitive' breeds) could carry on without our support, but for the most part these breeds would vanish without our exploitation.

    Next: if veggies want to stand on a high ground, then they should look to their own exploitation of the planet.  So much 'organic' food is produced with more expensive inputs a lower yields leading to more long-term exploitation of the natural resource, and depends upon animal manure, see for example:

    http://www.self-willed-land.org.uk/articles/doing_sums.htm

    Much of the soya these people like to use to substitute for meat and milk is produced at the expense of the rainforests.

    It goes on; try this site for more information regarding these subjects as the debates have flowed back and forth quite a few times!

    Combat Claire: I suggest the local paper would be as good a battleground to fight this as the site itself since they carried the fightthere in the first place.  It's the general public who need the education here.

     

  • Thu, Oct 6 2005 17:21 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    I've had a bash at a rebuttal e-mail saying how things actually run on the sheep farms I've worked at - I'm guessing they are fairly typical of a lowland sheep farm. I don't feel fully confident working on a letter to the paper though..give me a few drinks and I might feel differently!
  • Thu, Oct 6 2005 19:49 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    Claire

    I think you are well capable of getting the message across but I understand what you mean about wanting to feel confident in your letter.  Perhaps Townie could help with the draft (unofficially of course).

    And Townie,

    You can call me what you like (but not late for dinner) - Townie, bit of misnomer (where's the spellcheck)  I think.  Curious, you seem extremely knowledgeable to me and your message was very much to the point.  Well said.

    However, I do think, other than maybe a rebuttle in paper, it might be as well left alone.  May indeed make it a bigger matter than it really is and we don't want to help them too much do we?

    Regards

    Bunny

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • Thu, Oct 6 2005 22:45 In reply to

    • Mayo
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Sun, May 22 2005

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    Townie!

    Dr A Trewas- good chap. not actually connected to Ag in any way. i'd thoroughly recommend him as a source. I have been 'plagarising' his work for years.

    Simply brilliant, BUT not politically acceptable.

    Don curry would never approve.

    Brilliant link there. I hope you remember the references i gave for the energy efficiency of organic VS conventional VS integrated farming.

     

    Regards

    Mayo

  • Thu, Oct 6 2005 23:15 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    Cheers Mayo

    I'll note the information;  got the impression he was a good source.

    Regards

    Bunny

     

     

  • Fri, Oct 7 2005 8:25 In reply to

    • townie
    • Top 150 Contributor
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    Re: What a heap of crap!

    Mayo,

    Yes I remember those references, thanks: carefully stashed and plagarised in turn elsewhere

    T.

     

  • Mon, Oct 10 2005 17:49 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    This is the response I had:

     

    Dear Claire
     
    Thank you for your comments regarding the Youth4animals website. I hope that the following deals with your principal points.
     
    Animal Aid has been on many sheep farms both lowland and upland across the country over the years. All the information that we present is based on factual evidence either recorded on film or from industry sources and, of course, from direct experience.
     
    Strategies on improving lamb survival have been around for years yet the mortality rate remains fairly constant. The lambs die because their mothers are undernourished and / or exposed to inclement weather and cannot feed the lambs sufficiently. We recognise that most of the lambs dying are in the uplands. In the lowlands there is a lot of foot, gut and other illnesses, caused by overcrowding in the sheds.
     
    Needless to say, many lambs and ewes do die on the uplands as a result of severe weather conditions. No wild animal stands out in the open all day and night without any shelter, due to hazards presented by harsh weather and predators. Sheep have no option. This is not only unnatural but also unacceptable.
     
    Tube feeding used to be an emergency measure. However, due to selective breeding so that farmers can obtain more profit from twins and triplets, it has become more readily used in order to feed the lambs that the ewes do not have teats for – or to feed orphans. Tube feeding is very invasive. In fact, it can be fatal. Animal Aid has filmed a lamb dying as a result of being tube fed.
     
    Animal Aid knows that fly strike can be devastating, but chemicals are not the answer. The sheep should be kept clean so that fly strike does not occur. And if it’s too difficult to keep 500 sheep clean then the number should be reduced so that they can be properly cared for. As you point out, there are insufficient flock masters to care for the number of sheep. Farmers should ensure that they have sufficient funds to employ the correct amount of staff so that the sheep’s welfare is not compromised. \r\n 
    \r\nLameness is not a minor issue amongst sheep. It is a significant problem that Animal Aid has filmed and encountered at numerous markets and farms. Transferring and mixing sheep between markets and farms also helps to spread diseases, such as foot & mouth, orf, and infectious foot rot.
    \r\n 
    \r\n
    We are happy to debate this issue, but please do not delude yourself into imagining that Animal Aid is ill-informed about such matters. We have a good deal of evidence, including video footage, which substantiates the information presented on our website. Our core position is that sheep should not be subjected at all to this regime, as it is not necessary for us to eat them. More than 40% of sheep farmers’ income comes from public subsidies and vegetarians and vegans – apart from objecting to our money being given to farming sheep – feel perfectly entitled to communicate our views.
    Lameness is not a minor issue amongst sheep. It is a significant problem that Animal Aid has filmed and encountered at numerous markets and farms. Transferring and mixing sheep between markets and farms also helps to spread diseases, such as foot & mouth, orf, and infectious foot rot.
     
    We are happy to debate this issue, but please do not delude yourself into imagining that Animal Aid is ill-informed about such matters. We have a good deal of evidence, including video footage, which substantiates the information presented on our website. Our core position is that sheep should not be subjected at all to this regime, as it is not necessary for us to eat them. More than 40% of sheep farmers’ income comes from public subsidies and vegetarians and vegans – apart from objecting to our money being given to farming sheep – feel perfectly entitled to communicate our views.

  • Mon, Nov 27 2006 20:38 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    i had a shot of an email to these idiots this is what i got back,

    ' thank you for your email. All statements on our website are factual and can be backed up by independent references. If we were to make untrue statements, we would be sued. 

    It's difficult to wade through the bad language and atrocious grammar to get to the crux of your argument. If you have a specific point to make and can bolster your claims with intellectual and solid arguments and references, we'd be pleased to hear from  you. If indeed you do represent the farming community, it is no wonder it is in such a mess.'
     
    i thought my grammar was not THAT bad .
  • Tue, Nov 28 2006 7:27 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    What a load of **** I have never seen something so misleading and wrong, people like that put farming in the wrong light, im going to send them an e-mail and see what they say about that

    Dom 

  • Tue, Nov 28 2006 10:15 In reply to

    • chips
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    • Joined on Tue, Nov 21 2006

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    Myself being an organic farmer are probably what most vegans would like all farmers to be. However I think Vegans are the biggest bunch of hypocriptes out There. The first thing you learn about Organic farming is that the further you stray from mother nature the harder life is going to be for you. I can understand why with the public getting so far removed from agriculture that the thought of slaughtering animals to eat them is so horrific but life is not a bowl of rose tinted white bunny rabbits.

      Sustainable agriculture relies on mixed cropping not thousands of acres of mono cropped soya and wheat which is exactly what a vegan diet relies on. If you want to eat vegan fair enough but don't knock conventional farming techniques ! Their response would be That there are stockless organic farms but Believe me there are very few that aren't relieing on manures from other farms or rock phosphates from thousands of miles away. Stockless organic farms also require about half of there farm to being in fertilty building crops that are just ploughed in and so quite wasteful .Where as if you have used fossil fuels to establish a crop far better to utilise that crop by Grazing it and producing meat and milk for human consumption and manure for a healthy living soil and thus less need to ship Nutrients from thousands of miles away to your farm.

    Although I'm organic I personaly believe that the best way to farm is a halfway house between organic and conventional mixed farming unfortunatley I can't get a sustainable milk price farming that way and so have to be Organic. I would really like to try and use min til techniques to establish some of my crops But because I can't use a relatively harmless weed killer I have to plough and release far more carbon to the atmosphere

    and kill far more living bacteria in the soil than one dose of weed killer would.

    As for Animal welfare issues I don't think it makes any differance wether you're organic or not, It always comes down to the nature of the farmer and if he's getting enough money for his product, Cos lets face it most stock farmers farm for a love of their animals and job not for a huge return on capital !

    P.s sorry about my spelling but Vegan's thinking they're holyier than mother nature get's me wild !

  • Thu, Nov 30 2006 21:46 In reply to

    • squid
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Mon, Feb 13 2006

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    I agree with what your saying. What they have published is manipulated and twisted and very unreprestative. However you will not win the battle with abusive emails. Thats there opinion and you wont change it. Farmers in general have got to club together and actively promote the high quality and level of produce we produce, not get into a slanging match in which we will probably end up losing. The general public has a derogatry stereotypical image of farmers as it is.

  • Thu, May 21 2009 13:07 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    It's difficult to wade through the bad language and atrocious grammar to get to the crux of your argument. If you have a specific point to make and can bolster your claims with intellectual and solid arguments and references, we'd be pleased to hear from  you. If indeed you do represent the farming community, it is no wonder it is in such a mess.'
     
    I am stunned.  Did they REALLY write that? Absolutley stunned!
    Who cares what your grammar and spelling are like?  How rude and unbusinesslike of them!
  • Thu, May 21 2009 19:31 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    Wow, I definatly agree with the B******ks Statement.

    See, I breed sheep and I don't intentionally make them have twins or triplets because thats impossible! (I read the sheep bit) We have to give them injections because of the bluetounge jab law. As for the castration, some humans do it and why aren't these 'veggies' attacking them?!?!

    At my school there's a veggie who I'm friends with and he likes what I do very much, He understands why we slaughter them and he is enthusiastic about protecting our livestock with a gun!

    Crazy people.

    ~Meggiewes~

    Yellow belly through and through, if you don't count the Geordie bloodline...

    Check out my blog: http://www.fwi.co.uk/community/blogs/meggiewes/default.aspx
    Or just look at my snaps: http://www.fwi.co.uk/community/photos/meggiewes/default.aspx
  • Sat, May 23 2009 23:00 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    These people have never kept/bred a sheep or they would realise the stupidity of their statements. Yes, there are some bad farmers and maltreated animals but there are also seemingly more bad humans and (very sadly) horribly maltreated children. My sheep lamb indoors and even with observation and obstetric care, some lambs are lost at birth. Children are lost at birth even in a hospital. If it was left to them there would be no animals at all. Is that being kind? You tell me!

    Keeping sheep from their lifetime ambition
  • Sun, May 24 2009 15:38 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

     

    Stupid animal rights activists, they have no idea what the hell they are on about do they!

    I was in the Co Op in minehead the other week and one of those bloody animal "huggers" was in there telling us about how the countryside works,My brother and I walk passed and said bloody badger huggers and this french animal rights protestor stoped us and said whats wrong with badgers.so we said there bloody TB spreading creatchers He turned around and said can you prove it,so mum told him of the story of one of our 3 cattle that caught TB off a badger.My brother and i said we can prove it and walked off,That bloke didnt look happy being beaten by a couple of 16 year old lads.

  • Mon, May 25 2009 10:34 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    anonymous:

    What a load of **** I have never seen something so misleading and wrong, people like that put farming in the wrong light, im going to send them an e-mail and see what they say about that

    Dom 

    Have they replied?

    ~Meggiewes~

    Yellow belly through and through, if you don't count the Geordie bloodline...

    Check out my blog: http://www.fwi.co.uk/community/blogs/meggiewes/default.aspx
    Or just look at my snaps: http://www.fwi.co.uk/community/photos/meggiewes/default.aspx
  • Mon, May 25 2009 23:11 In reply to

    Re: What a heap of crap!

    Curious how they believe clean sheep don't get flystrike! They can and do, some sheep seem to have a predisposition to it!

    Not every day is baaaaad.....
  • Tue, May 26 2009 10:13 In reply to

    • Peter Wells
    • Top 25 Contributor
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    Re: What a heap of crap!

    crazysheep:
    Curious how they believe clean sheep don't get flystrike!

    Good observation crazysheep. Sheep get fly strike in all kinds of places, Mine have had it on clean shoulders and rump and, last year, we found it on the clean breast. Never had it there before.

    Most of these animal rights people have never had the opportunity to work with animals and so lack the experience that is crucial to tempering the impact of ideas and theory. I have always thought that 'knowing' oneself is critical if one is to understand and handle animals in a way that allows them to express their own nature.

    Animal Rights people, in general, seem to assume they speak for animals in much the same way as Gordon Brown believes he speaks for me.

    He doesn't and they don't!

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