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  • #1010575

     
    out on the hill
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    EID The sheep industry is facing melt down with EID being imposed on our industry .

    If sheep numbers drop much more there will be casualties in the processing and slaughter industries, all which need to have product coming forward 12 months of the year to stay viable . With out them remember our product is worthless .

    The extra cost consumers may think will get passed back to the producer . Nothing could be further from the truth . The extra work and cost will result in fewer farmers keeping sheep , reducing supply and driving prices up through supply and demand . Some processors will fold (Jobs).

     It will not only effect lamb.Most livestock farms have sheep and cattle and with a reduction in sheep number and with the farm scaling  on the labour front cattle numbers could be cut to keep the work load in tune with labour available .

    Remember cattle numbers have dropped significantly in the last couple of years and although prices are firmer so costs have increased as well .

     We are approaching a crossroads where sometime soon food demand will out strips supply , measures like EID have not been thought through by the Euro crats , its a food tax but not as we know it !!

    #1010576

     
    wee manwee man
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    out on the hill

    EID The sheep industry is facing melt down with EID being imposed on our industry .

     

    If you want to look at the long term trends sheep and cattle numbers have hardly dropped below what they where before headage payments came in all we have lost since the the start of SFP is all the stock that where just attached to the N bag and the numbers game. most of the animals that have been lost in the country have come out of the hardest area like the highlands and Cumbria the stock in these areas isn’t very productive, you would need at least 5 highland blackies to produce the same weight of lamb as your average lowland ewe so i wouldn’t worry to much about the fall in numbers yet. 

    out on the hill

     We are approaching a crossroads where sometime soon food demand will out strips supply , measures like EID have not been thought through by the Euro crats , its a food tax but not as we know it !!

     

     If you truly belive that demand for food will outstrip supply what are you worried about, you must have seen what grain prices did when people thought there wouldn’t be enough was it a doubling or a tripeling of price?   Roll on the good times EID will just sort the wheat from the chaff in the sheep industry[:D]

  • #1010577

     
    out on the hill
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    Wee man< ?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> I agree with you on sheep numbers , 30 % in ;last 10 years .The hill lambs that come off the hill provide lamb for the processing sector to run for 12 months of the year – bridging the gap between new and old season lamb. Every time you lose a potential outlet for your produce you make the market more volitile because imports start effecting the price more due to their increased market share . Its good to look at your own position but the bigger our industry is and the more markets  we can supply  given the exchange rates at present  the less we are  reliant on the big retailers dictating prices to us.That is why prices at present have risen, because they have competition.EID and double tagging that goes with it will be a  huge time issue for breeding ewes in the future , not only the cost of lost EID tags but the time to replace them and more importantly recording  the details in the flock book. You try writing in a note book on a wet day in the middle of winter  The hill ewe question is not just a production one , it is a tourist issue , keeping the landscape  looking like it has done for centuries , helping  people that live there and  keeping services in tact.        

    #1010578

     
    glasshouseglasshouse
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    eid is just another nail in the sheep farmers coffin.

    If we all have the courage to stand firm and say NO, we will defeat this nonsense.

    Wee man, i take it you like eid and all the hassle?

    all tags should be outlawed on grounds of cruelty.

    #1010579

     
    wee manwee man
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    out on the hill

    EID and double tagging that goes with it will be a  huge time issue for breeding ewes in the future , not only the cost of lost EID tags but the time to replace them and more importantly recording  the details in the flock book. You try writing in a note book on a wet day in the middle of winter

     

    double tagging has nothing to do with EID they are completely separate enteritis. we already have double tagging!!! the only difference that most farmers will have to face is that the tags cost a bit more. I have a suspicion that even if we stop EID we will still have to record individual moments if this is the case then EID is deffinetly the lesser of 2 evils as the computer will do the flock book automatically.    

    Glasshouse I am not particularly for EID i don’t think it will add much value to the industry but i am getting very very bored with the “it’s the final nail in the coffin” talk that surrounds British farming especial when we have lambs making 100 and ewes making 70. if you sell 10 lambs at that price you can get a scanner and the computer program to go with it and you will never have to write another number assuming you already have a PC with a Printer(2 and a half more lambs if you don’t). we could say no but we could also take the Canadian argument that if they had had individual movements recorded they could have proved where their one cow that had BSE came from killed every cow on that farm and the border with the USA would have stayed open. the border closing cost the Canadian cattle industry Billions of dollars! a few tens of millions for EID tags and the data base to go with it would have been cheap.

    P.s you would have a very boring thread if no one took the other side[:P]   

    #1010580

     
    Peter WellsPeter Wells
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    wee man

    P.s you would have a very boring thread if no one took the other sideStick out tongue

    This is true wee man and good on yer.

    I think a lot of the ‘heat’ in the tagging debate arises because of the illogical and rather stupid behaviour of our ruling political elites. A case of BSE in Canadian beef causes panic because politicians do not argue that one case, like one swallow, does not make a summer. A theory that BSE might via some miraculous medium be transferred to sheep’s brains and by some further miracle re-emerge in their loins is allowed to give rise to the idea of individually identifying sheep not once, but twice and then by electronic means. In short, the cost to Canada of billions of dollars and the Cost to Welsh, Scottish and English farmers arises because the political processes ensure that are governed by idiots. Not, I hasten to add, foolish idiots but very clever ones.

    Roll on the revolution but, until that time, I refer you to another thread in which Scottish Farmers are calling for a protest march on this issue. Name the place and time and I’ll be there.

     

    #1010586

     
    JacobusJacobus
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    wee man

    a few tens of millions for EID tags and the data base to go with it would have been cheap.

    In the case of UK sheep EID, the one thing that DEFRA have been absolutely positive and resolute about is that they will NOT be setting up any kind of national database to record movements of individual sheep.  In which case, movement tracing will still be down to the batch recording system currently operated by Trading Standards and the ONLY benefit in terms of animal health of EID will be the ability to read a sheep’s ear tag electronically (rather than visually) and know where it was born.  And the only sheep disease where this may have any relevance is Scrapie.

    wee man

    double tagging has nothing to do with EID they are completely separate enteritis

    Enteritis - although I assume this was a mistyping of entities – what a beautiful Freudian slip!  Enteritis = inflammation of the small intestine, possible symptoms include diarrhoea!

    #1010587

     
    top tup
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    Wee man, you’re spot on, even without EID it is highly likely and possible guaranteed that we’ll have to record individual numbers and cross reference any replacement tags in the on-farm flock register – that won’t be a lot of fun for anyone with a large flock.

    But, as Jacobu rightly points out without a central database EID is worthless, giving nothing more than we already have. EID only works when there’s a central database able to record the individual movements, without it what’s the point of individual ID?

    However, there are other benefits other than health that could come from EID, it can allow rapid recognition of beneficial bloodlines and management practice and I know one farm where liveweight gain has been recorded for a couple of seasons and its allowed them to identify which pastures are performing best and prioritise grassland rejuvenation and reseeding.

    Beyond that it could also deliver a myriad of on-farm recording benefits, particuarly for closed flocks where ewes suffering repeat foot problems can be recorded and a whole host of other issues too. Once collected this data can be analysed and used to determine both breeding and culling strategies for the future and that’s not to mention the possible benefits of abattoirs being able to feedback slaughter data direct to farm for every individual allowing the best sire and dam lines to be identified – again of most benefit to closed flocks, but equally anyone buying tups or ewes from more than one source could see which breed the best and leave the best returns.

    Finally, and this is the big win, with EID and a central database we could do away with the six day standstill (13 days in Scotland) and all the incumbent problems it brings. After all if the database is updated in real time, there would be a log off every sheep’s location at any given point, apart from when they’re travelling, and any one of them could be tracked along its movement history to see where its been and if its been exposed to any potential disease risk.

    But, a central database is a must for any of these benefits to be truly realised.

    #1010588

     
    crazysheepcrazysheep
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    I can see where this is going….sheep passports next![^o)]

    #1010589

     
    the aged clun
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    crazysheep

    I can see where this is going….sheep passports next

    Yup! Unfortunately, I’ve been saying this since 2001 and it is all becoming horribly, horribly true. Still, why should we worry about sheep – the Government would like to plot our movements every second of the day!

     

    #1010590

     
    out on the hill
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    wee man

    double tagging has nothing to do with EID

     

    I disagree  . Double tagging was brought in so that individual identification of sheep could be maintained when there was tag loss.

    If you use a batch system, using farm flock numbers  for selling sheep there is no need to have individal identification .

    From a disease point of view if I sell 1 or 50 sheep to the Wee man it makes no difference because there is a link.

    The TSE threat has gone in sheep , anything that ate contaminated feed before 1996 is history

    So the reasons for having individual ID in sheep are now unclear ., this legislation was written on the back of the uncertainty of BSE

    What gains does individual ID have ? – If you  want it as a breeding tool thats  great

    The OLD Scottish batch system was simple , and when an animal turned up with a problem could be track traced in most cases back up the supply chain by the tags in its ear.(A flock movement  tag was added to the sheep when it arrived on farm )

    Even if a national database for sheep was set up ,before it would get rid of the 6  /13 day standstills I believe it would have to be certified by Europe which wouldn’t happen overnight.

    Most people will just accept this stupid legislation OR will get rid of their sheep.

    My view – Government stated it would get rid of unnecessary bureaucracy – for once deal with it before it is implemented .

    or at least tell us the benifit it will bring the industry and disease tracability  , because I don’t see it

    Individual ID is the issue , its not just the extra money for the tags its all the extra time and admin that comes with it

     

     

    #1010591

     
    JacobusJacobus
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    out on the hill

    Individual ID is the issue

    Absolutely right.  EID was dreamt up as being the most efficient way of updating a national database of sheep movements recording movements of individual animals.  If producers, markets and abattoirs could record movements electronically and submit them online, then a recording system would be a possibility.  Expecting Trading Standards to input ear tag numbers from potentially illegible paper forms would be a nightmare. 

    If there is to be no database then individual ID is irrelevant, as is double tagging.

    With no database, there is no benefit for tracing contacts in the case of an outbreak of infectious disease as tracing still has to be done by reference to the records of individual markets and producers.

    It is not just EID we need to be fighting, but also the requirement for individual ID on movement documents.  Without EID, the recording in markets of the individual IDs of the sheep making up each lot will be a tremendous imposition, and each lot could not leave the market until the data was in the market’s computer and therefore be available for creating the ongoing movement form for the buyer.

    In reality, if we have to have the recording of individual ID on movement forms, EID will be essential. 

    Almost all our sheep are pedigree so we have to record their individual IDs in our records, and for the sake of completeness, they are always recorded on movement forms (even if going to slaughter), just in case other records are lost or corrupted.  Our numbers are small (100 lambs a year max.) so the cost of EID reader and software compared with the few hours a year needed to record them now, will not be cost effective. Someone earlier in the thread has compared to cost of the equipment with the market value of lambs at present, but it is the annualised cost of all tags and equipment which needs to be compared to PROFIT made per lamb that needs to be compared with the benefit to flock efficiency.

    I can see the benefits of EID on larger farms if the management of the flock and facilities allow the equipment to be set up in such circumstances that it will be reliable, in picking up data to help make breeding choices and help record treatments and so on, but this choice should be down to the individual producer, not a matter for legislation.

    As with almost all EU legislation, there has been no cost benefit analysis.  The reality is that, without the requirement to create an individual movement database, there is ZERO benefit to requiring or recording individual ID.  If this is the case ANY additional cost to the industry is throwing money down the drain!

    #1010642

     
    the aged clun
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    out on the hill

    The TSE threat has gone in sheep , anything that ate contaminated feed before 1996 is history

    Err- not quite. Am just about to lamb a commercial ewe born in 1995!

    More seriously though, I went to a cross compliance meeting last night and it is plain that DEFRA have no idea how this is going  to work. The space on the movement book page for individual identification of animals is totally inadequate for recording even 20 sheep moved to market. The NFU man suggested that it could be recorded on computer. OK that’s fine by me, but what about the chap up the road who has never worked a computer and is unlikely to start now. Is he effectively excluded from stockmanship because he can’t handle IT?

    Then there will be the wonderfully confusing situation for a number of years where batches of mixed ewes will be sold. Some will legitimately have one ear tag, some two and some will have EID. The older ewes will be batch recorded and the younger ones individually recorded. Sort THAT on out down the market on a Monday morning!!

    #1010643

     
    Bill RBill R
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    By all accounts, BCMS are in a bit of a mess with cattle tracing. There are far fewer cattle movements and each batch is much smaller – normally 1 to 10 go through the ring at once.

    How on earth is a national data base for sheep going to work? we don’t even have a national data base for humans.

    #1010581

     
    burocrat basher
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    Peter,

           I had a letter from the House of Commons today: Mr Drew [my MP] has asked for a reply to my enquirery re EID’s. Will keep you posted.

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